Interior room J vs. M/R

[mooneyflyfast]

Looks like all the fuselage stretch went to the baggage area.  Correct?

[Gagarin]

9 minutes ago, mooneyflyfast said:

Looks like all the fuselage stretch went to the baggage area.  Correct?

That is correct. The seating area space is the same for M20J , M , R

[Niko182]

50 minutes ago, Gagarin said:

That is correct. The seating area space is the same for M20J , M , R

The Long bodies have a little more space in the front. the gear isn't in the way like it is on the mid bodies.

[INA201]

While we are at it, are the wings and tail the same on the J and up too? 

[Steve Dawson]

I have a J but if you look at where your arms are positioned in the later model R and M's it looks like they have a bit more arm room.

[carusoam]

Lots o room in front of the firewall...

extra space carved out in the interior, if and where inches count...

gigantic baggage compartment, if it fits in a Tahoe, it fits in the baggage area...

Tail feathers are slightly different... probably need to line a few Mooneys up side by side to see all the aero bits and pieces that made it to the Long Bodies...

Lots o evolution over the years...
 

1100 # UL, gobs of power, plenty of space... then add/trade UL for the niceties... AC, turbo, O2, or Fiki...

Best value... 

If you like the J, but prefer the Continental power plant of the O/Eagle... go Missile...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

MFF...

If you want to do the comparison yourself... there is a guy in your neighborhood...

Find All American Aircraft... Talk to Jimmy... AAA usually has a few Mooneys to try on.

Use caution... sitting in a powerful long body is just the beginning of a long addiction... 

 

Ina...

rumor has it, that they all fly on the same wing... until you have to swap one wing for the next and find more of the evolution as you go... the biggest changes were wood, aluminum, fuel cap doors, flush fuel caps, variations of the airlerons, twisted wings, flush rivets.... Gaps sealed, and wing tips, and where the lights got hidden....

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

58 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

58 minutes ago, carusoam said:

gigantic baggage compartment, if it fits in a Tahoe, it fits in the baggage area...

technically, according to the POH, that “gigantic baggage compartment” still has a 120lb maximum weight limit, though.

seems silly to me- as they account for rear passenger weight when the seats are folded down (“cargo, seats folded down-340”), which is 170 per seat.... but doesn’t  specify the moment arm for loading in that configuration- just a maximum weight.  That would lead the test pilot in me to want to go put 340lbs in the baggage compartment with the rear seats in the up position, but unoccupied... which is probably what mooney did during their testing on the long body.  Either that, or they didn’t test a cargo loading at all with the seats folded down... but put 120lbs in the baggage area and the rest (perhaps a 220lb body?) in the rear seats.  Or maybe just used 340lbs from the back seat testing and left the cargo bay empty- thus potentially avoiding some recertification test efforts.

either way, the placard limit exists.

 

oh, and -A-, you forgot slightly faster and a greater useful load, when comparing a missile to an Ovation.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by M016576

[carusoam]

J,

I get the feeling... the POH is leaving a lot of flexibility... they aren’t being super specific where the CG of the load needs to be...

But, when the WnB is done... magically, the CG of everybody and everything land at the given station...

 

When I used the Tahoe example... that was traveling with young kids... they come with a ton of volume... and not much weight...

 

Now they are all grown up... I would have to actually partially fill the tanks and not go the full length of the country...

Who am I kidding... the kids are hardly home anymore....  

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

13 hours ago, M016576 said:

technically, according to the POH, that “gigantic baggage compartment” still has a 120lb maximum weight limit, though.

seems silly to me- as they account for rear passenger weight when the seats are folded down (“cargo, seats folded down-340”), which is 170 per seat.... but doesn’t  specify the moment arm for loading in that configuration- just a maximum weight.  That would lead the test pilot in me to want to go put 340lbs in the baggage compartment with the rear seats in the up position, but unoccupied... which is probably what mooney did during their testing on the long body.  Either that, or they didn’t test a cargo loading at all with the seats folded down... but put 120lbs in the baggage area and the rest (perhaps a 220lb body?) in the rear seats.  Or maybe just used 340lbs from the back seat testing and left the cargo bay empty- thus potentially avoiding some recertification test efforts.

either way, the placard limit exists.

 

oh, and -A-, you forgot slightly faster and a greater useful load, when comparing a missile to an Ovation.

 

The baggage weight limit has to do with the strength of the baggage compartment floor. Remember, it has to hold up under g load with a factor of safety. Making the floor stronger adds structural weight where you don't want it.

Skip

[M016576]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

The baggage weight limit has to do with the strength of the baggage compartment floor. Remember, it has to hold up under g load with a factor of safety. Making the floor stronger adds structural weight where you don't want it.

Skip

I understand that part- but what doesn’t make sense to me is how the book states “cargo- seats folded down-340lbs” but doesn’t specify a Moment arm for those 340 lbs.... by that logic, you could conceivably load all 340 lbs in what is normally the “seats up” baggage area and still be legal so long as the seats are folded down... thus de-bunking the strength of the baggage compartment floor.

I think where I’m fuzzy on the logistics is that it seems to me like if you fold down the seats, the entire load could potentially shift all the way aft, the “overloading” the supposedly fragile baggage compartment floor.  Am I misreading this?  Or is there something else in the load schedule that I’m missing? 
 

do the seats in an ovation fold down over the normal floor in the baggage area?  In my J, I just remove them entirely if I don’t want them in there any more...

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by M016576

[M016576]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

J,

I get the feeling... the POH is leaving a lot of flexibility... they aren’t being super specific where the CG of the load needs to be...

But, when the WnB is done... magically, the CG of everybody and everything land at the given station...

 

I love that it’s flexible... but they might as well just drop that 120lb restriction out of there entirely and just go with 340 for all circumstances.  Unless, of course, that would result in material failure... then the total “cargo” number should probably be a bit more restrictive (in CG or Weight, or both).  
 

my 3rd guess is that their is some unknown FAA way of calculating central CG for a compartment, that is not based on point loading for the weakest point in said compartment.  So when mooney calculated their center point for the cargo area they found it wasn’t as strong as the center point of the area with the seats folded down, this the difference in weight restrictions.... just (another) guess though.

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I understand that part- but what doesn’t make sense to me is how the book states “cargo- seats folded down-340lbs” but doesn’t specify a Moment arm for those 340 lbs.... by that logic, you could conceivably load all 340 lbs in what is normally the “seats up” baggage area and still be legal so long as the seats are folded down... thus de-bunking the strength of the baggage compartment floor.

I think where I’m fuzzy on the logistics is that it seems to me like if you fold down the seats, the entire load could potentially shift all the way aft, the “overloading” the supposedly fragile baggage compartment floor.  Am I misreading this?  Or is there something else in the load schedule that I’m missing? 
 

do the seats in an ovation fold down over the normal floor in the baggage area?  In my J, I just remove them entirely if I don’t want them in there any more...

 

It's the same in the J: The BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT is limited to 120 lbs. The CARGO AREA  is the rear seat area with the seats folded down. The moment arm is the same as the rear seats.

[MooneyMitch]

23 hours ago, Gagarin said:

That is correct. The seating area space is the same for M20J , M , R

I’m agreeing with this, but........ how come I remember my Ovation front passenger seat moving back far enough to where I could easily just step down into the front passenger floor area without climbing over the passenger seat to slide into the left seat! 

Age related memory perhaps?

Help !! 

[M016576]

37 minutes ago, PT20J said:

It's the same in the J: The BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT is limited to 120 lbs. The CARGO AREA  is the rear seat area with the seats folded down. The moment arm is the same as the rear seats.

That makes sense, and I get that...But what’s stopping the cargo area cargo from moving into the baggage area in flight?  (Other than good judgement and packing skills)

[Gary0747]

When they increased the max weight of the later Js to 2940 where did the allow the weight to be put?  I understand it was basically a paper work change?

[PT20J]

12 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

When they increased the max weight of the later Js to 2940 where did the allow the weight to be put?  I understand it was basically a paper work change?

2900 lb. And, only some S/Ns qualify, so I believe there was a change in the tubular structure. The only weight limitations listed in the Limitations section of the AFM are 

Baggage Compartment 120 lbs, Hatrack 10 lbs, Cargo area with seats folded down 340 lbs. So you can put the rest wherever you want.

Skip

[M016576]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

2900 lb. And, only some S/Ns qualify, so I believe there was a change in the tubular structure. The only weight limitations listed in the Limitations section of the AFM are 

Baggage Compartment 120 lbs, Hatrack 10 lbs, Cargo area with seats folded down 340 lbs. So you can put the rest wherever you want.

Skip

According to my Missile STC, there are some nose gear components that were swapped out with later model components to allow for the GW increase to 3200... I think it’s a thicker walled tubular structure in the nose gear components, if memory serves me correct.  The components that were replaced are listed in the Missile STC paperwork... I may have already posted those here somewhere...

[M016576]

8 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I’m agreeing with this, but........ how come I remember my Ovation front passenger seat moving back far enough to where I could easily just step down into the front passenger floor area without climbing over the passenger seat to slide into the left seat! 

Age related memory perhaps?

Help !! 

I’m guessing that passenger was not one of @Marauder ‘s girls!

Edited November 28, 2019 by M016576

[carusoam]

Additional detail...

O seats fold forwards and very flat.... once the seat-bottom cushion is removed... they are held in place using Velcro...

 

Whatever the POH says... their English can be interpreted in several ways...

Know that the weight and balance is best maintained using the actual measured stations... no matter where the seats physically end up...

And when removing seats, that weight gets removed from the WnB as well...

 

Are there any reference marks, or physical references for the various stations...?  The modern POH probably has a description of each reference...

 

The POH has simplified the weight balance challenges pretty well.  In engineering schools, WnB is a one semester class called ‘Statics’...

And statics doesn’t cover the strength of materials that Skip has detailed...

And the chance of having a challenge in flight with a problem with WnB... that is statistics...

Just remember to tie down the load....

If a heavy load moves from the front to the back.... it might not be possible to return to the airport from which you departed...

Lots o YouTube videos for load shifts in airplanes...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[amillet]

Our J has the Ovation style interior. The rear seat backs slide up and off the square tube frame.  Those tubes fold completely into the seat pan cavity where the bottom cushions fit. 

[MooneyMitch]

The Ovation!!  A great airplane!!