Has anyone seen this before--ADF required for procedure entry??

[jaylw314]

At my home airport at KCVO, I noticed the current ILS 17 procedure has been modified to include the comment "ADF required for procedure entry.  ADF required for LOC only."

WTF??  Why would they do this if GPS has been an accepted alternative to ADF for all other procedures?

[Mjknick@gmail.com]

LOC only no gps and you time the approach. 40 years of IFR experience and you young guys do get what we worked with. Read about A/N approach (dot dash null and dash dot) fun stuff!


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[Mjknick@gmail.com]

There are certified IFR airplanes with little equipment that are legal.


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[tigers2007]

What is an “ADF”?


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[carusoam]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

What is an “ADF”?   


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Got you covered...   

For Jay...

Check each of the approach plates for that airport...

Most are an overlay of one another...

The ILS approach into KMMU (Morristown, NJ) uses an ADF for the Missed Approach...

The GPS approach uses an intersection collocated in the same spot as the ADF waypoint...

As time has past in terms of FAA and ice floes... the FAA has generated multiple approach types... one specific to GPS... you probably won’t see an ADF used on that approach...

Now, if your next GPS waypoint has only a three letter identifier... I have a spare ADF if you need one... 

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

At my home airport at KCVO, I noticed the current ILS 17 procedure has been modified to include the comment "ADF required for procedure entry.  ADF required for LOC only."

WTF??  Why would they do this if GPS has been an accepted alternative to ADF for all other procedures?

The procedure is written assuming legacy navigation aids. The IAF is an NDB so ADF is required. However, if you have an IFR GPS, you can use it as a substitute for the ADF. 

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/air-traffic-services-brief-use-of-gps-in-lieu-of-dme-adf

[kortopates]

This is the new gov format for describing equipment requirements beyond the final approach.
It much clearer now is to what equipment is required where.
But remember as Skip said above, GPS substitutes for ADF, VORs (except when it’s named in the approach name*) and DME.

*plus you can even navigate with GPS on final on VOR and ADF approaches as long as you monitor the raw VOR or ADF data.


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[ilovecornfields]

With XM, you don’t really need an ADF anymore.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

This is the new gov format for describing equipment requirements beyond the final approach.
It much clearer now is to what equipment is required where.
But remember as Skip said above, GPS substitutes for ADF, VORs (except when it’s named in the approach name*) and DME.

*plus you can even navigate with GPS on final on VOR and ADF approaches as long as you monitor the raw VOR or ADF data.


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That's all correct, with one small addition. The supplemental requirement is going away from the title too. No more VOR/DME in the title. it will be in the notes too. Only the lateral guidance navaid will be in the title.
 

Instead of requiring us to read the AIM to figure out the reason, the chart now tells us.

@jaylw314, are you saying the previous plate did not say "ADF Required" anywhere on it? Now, that would be a surprise.

Edited November 24, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[cliffy]

Airplanes can fly IFR with but one VOR receiver installed in the airplane and nothing else for nav.  I guess making position reports with only one VOR installed is also a lost art!  :-) Do they even teach it anymore?

I used to fly my C-140 IFR with but an Escort 110 and venturi driven gyros. Used to fly KVNY to KSMO VOR-A IFR. 

And I did fly a 140 on an AN approach to KBUR waaaay back when. For you youngins' that's when you needed to understand Morse Code.

Ah yes, the old days- two speed blowers, autorich/autolean, feather buttons, whistle stop tuning, crystal controlled radios, tune to the null, fixed card ADF,  GCAs, colored airways, as mentioned- timed approaches (did lose the GS once in the middle of an ILS and my time hack at the beginning saved the approach). 

Back to the current movie-  GPS and how it runs the world now- (until the constellation takes a dump) All courtesy of Pres Clinton

[midlifeflyer]

37 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Airplanes can fly IFR with but one VOR receiver installed in the airplane and nothing else for nav.  I guess making position reports with only one VOR installed is also a lost art!  :-) Do they even teach it anymore?

I used to fly my C-140 IFR with but an Escort 110 and venturi driven gyros. Used to fly KVNY to KSMO VOR-A IFR. 

And I did fly a 140 on an AN approach to KBUR waaaay back when. For you youngins' that's when you needed to understand Morse Code.

Ah yes, the old days- two speed blowers, autorich/autolean, feather buttons, whistle stop tuning, crystal controlled radios, tune to the null, fixed card ADF,  GCAs, colored airways, as mentioned- timed approaches (did lose the GS once in the middle of an ILS and my time hack at the beginning saved the approach). 

Back to the current movie-  GPS and how it runs the world now- (until the constellation takes a dump) All courtesy of Pres Clinton

Wow. Thanks. I never realized Bill Clinton was so  instrumental in us now having more IFR routing options and  more precise and even precision instrument approaches to  so many airports which had none before!

[cliffy]

He was the one that turned off the "scrambler" to allow full accuracy for all who use GPS. Before only the military could get the high accuracy. 

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

He was the one that turned off the "scrambler" to allow full accuracy for all who use GPS. Before only the military could get the high accuracy. 

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/

I remember when SA was a thing.   And now we have WAAS/differential gps to get even better than that.

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

 

@jaylw314, are you saying the previous plate did not say "ADF Required" anywhere on it? Now, that would be a surprise.

To clarify for everyone, yes, the previous plates for the ILS 17 at KCVO did not say "ADF required for procedure entry."  That's the part that gets me--I understand the GPS is allowable as an overlay, but when the procedure now specifically says "ADF required" that seems to imply that GPS is no longer allowed to be used as an overlay for the procedure entry (or for the LOC approach)...

[kortopates]

23 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

To clarify for everyone, yes, the previous plates for the ILS 17 at KCVO did not say "ADF required for procedure entry."  That's the part that gets me--I understand the GPS is allowable as an overlay, but when the procedure now specifically says "ADF required" that seems to imply that GPS is no longer allowed to be used as an overlay for the procedure entry (or for the LOC approach)...

I suggest you re-read the many good post above. Regardless of what the old approach chart said, its only the new format that explains what other equipment is needed for, hence what's new is the "..required for procedure entry". The old format would have just had a note on the plan view or notes section that said "adf required" only. If this is new a new requirement for your CVO ILS 17, so be it, but the new requirement doesn't change the rules on GPS substitution for ADF, VOR and DME. See AIM 1-2-3 for that. You can still use GPS to fly every segment of the approach except the final from the FAF to the MAP.

Here is information on the new format for charted equipment requirements: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/instrument-approach-procedures 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

I suggest you re-read the many good post above. Regardless of what the old approach chart said, its only the new format that explains what other equipment is needed for, hence what's new is the "..required for procedure entry". The old format would have just had a note on the plan view or notes section that said "adf required" only. If this is new a new requirement for your CVO ILS 17, so be it, but the new requirement doesn't change the rules on GPS substitution for ADF, VOR and DME. See AIM 1-2-3 for that. You can still use GPS to fly every segment of the approach except the final from the FAF to the MAP.

Here is information on the new format for charted equipment requirements: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/instrument-approach-procedures 

Oooooooooooooooooh, that was what I needed, thank you!  My understanding is that I can think of the new boxed requirement format as rehashing what the procedure depicts for easy reference, but it's not actually a change in any requirement otherwise.  Thanks, it kind of freaked me out when I saw it!

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

To clarify for everyone, yes, the previous plates for the ILS 17 at KCVO did not say "ADF required for procedure entry."  That's the part that gets me--I understand the GPS is allowable as an overlay, but when the procedure now specifically says "ADF required" that seems to imply that GPS is no longer allowed to be used as an overlay for the procedure entry (or for the LOC approach)...

I know it did not say  "ADF required for procedure entry."   That is not what I asked,  

Glad to see you finally understood what we've been saying about the format change and stopped being freaked out.

Edited November 25, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[Guest]

ADF, the one nav form that Jeppesen and Garmin haven’t figured out how to bill for...yet.

Clarence

[tmo]

Jeppesen will happily sell you the charts, also for approaches that use ADF

With each country in Europe having a different variation of IFR charts one can be persuated to pay Jeppesen to normalize them all into a common format.

The US has it good with the free and consistent navdata and all.

[Gagarin]

Be careful when using ADF in the vicinity of  thunderstorms. Old ADF like the Bendix T12C (AM envelope detection) will point toward the lightning activity while newer ADF like the King KR87 (carrier coherent detection) will keep pointing toward the NDB. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Gagarin

[moodychief]

I’m surprised no one has brought up the in-flight entertainment value of an ADF!

My wife was surprised when a I dialed in a radio station to listen to the football game a couple weeks ago.  For some reason, I can’t get her to listen to music on XM but she was glued to the game.

Unlike most, my ADF still works and I will periodically practice the NDB approach at the local military base to keep the cobwebs from clouding my brain.

[Jerry 5TJ]

What’s a “radio station?”

On 11/25/2019 at 4:10 PM, Gagarin said:

Be careful when using ADF in the vicinity of  thunderstorms. Old ADF like the Bendix T12C (AM envelope detection) will point toward the lightning activity while newer ADF like the King KR87 (carrier coherent detection) will keep pointing toward the NDB. 

Old Birdmen (circa Ernie Gann & his contemporaries) would tune the ADF receiver to a clear channel & they claimed the needle would point towards lightning strikes.  

[midlifeflyer]

45 minutes ago, moodychief said:

I’m surprised no one has brought up the in-flight entertainment value of an ADF!

My wife was surprised when a I dialed in a radio station to listen to the football game a couple weeks ago.  For some reason, I can’t get her to listen to music on XM but she was glued to the game.

Unlike most, my ADF still works and I will periodically practice the NDB approach at the local military base to keep the cobwebs from clouding my brain.

In the Denver area, KOA radio was one of those high-power stations. It's just about on the edge of the Class D at KAPA.  Used to fly back home form new Mexico navigating to it while listening to football.

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

What’s a “radio station?”

Old Birdmen (circa Ernie Gann & his contemporaries) would tune the ADF receiver to a clear channel & they claimed the needle would point towards lightning strikes.  

And this is a surprise? Think about what the WWII Hump pilots had to do when all they had was ADF Most of their crossings were T-D-S and hope they got the wind guessed correctly  Many didn't.

Some of us started with "whistle stop tuning" and "BFOs" for tuning radios. Some had manual ADF antennas that you "tune to the null"

https://www.avweb.com/avionics/adf-basics/

So what's your plan when the constellation goes down? IT will some day. 

But flying across NM you could tune to 660 and listen to the Navajo radio station near Page AZ broadcast in the Navajo language 4 hrs a day!   :-)

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

So what's your plan when the constellation goes down? IT will some day

When GPS constellation is down...use the iPad which also receives GLONASS.