Green Flights

[Conrad]

I was just thinking to myself about the environmental impacts of my aviation activities, and I ended up writing a post over on FlightAware's forums. In short, I think it would be really cool if there were a way to automatically make carbon offset donations when you fly, and also to show off those donations publicly or as forum flair.

If this sounds interesting, here's the link to what I wrote: https://discussions.flightaware.com/t/ga-green-flights/57492. If it gets some activity, maybe the right people will see and consider it!

Does this sound like the sort of thing people here might want or use?


 

[N201MKTurbo]

Might as well flush your money down the toilet.

Carbon offsets have never offset anything. Just making the people handling the offsets rich.

If you are truly concerned about carbon emissions, then quit flying, driving and get rid or your air conditioner.

Anything less than that is just making you feel good, but not doing any real good.

Of course if the world wanted to stop the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, everybody worldwide would need to do what I stated above. It will never happen! The only thing that will reduce carbon in the atmosphere is when the world runs out of fossil fuel. The people in the world have no interest in doing anything real, just blaming everyone else for it.

Everybody thinks wind and solar will save the planet. Currently in the USA we supply 1/2 of 1% of our power with solar and wind. Electric cars and planes almost exclusively run on fossil fuel. You are just putting the exhaust pipe somewhere else.

The only feasible non carbon emitting energy sources are hydro and nuclear. The same people who want to stop carbon emissions are usually the ones who fight vigorously against those clean power sources. 

So, once again, If you want to feel good about yourself, get rid of the plane and car and buy a horse and a bicycle.

[eman1200]

I mimic rajjones’ reply on flight aware.

[Conrad]

We befit from doing something that harms other people. I don't see how trying to avoid the ethical quandry makes anyone a chump. Certainly it would be important to ensure that the money goes where it's supposed to, but it's silly to say that money can't help slow or stop climate change.

As to 201MK's response, I find it rather cynical. We're all here because we think that flying is worth the costs, which are high. To take the most simplistic view possible, if we ran the earth out of fossil fuels what do you think we'll put in our engines? But at that point the sea levels will have risen so many feet that I think many of us will have bigger problems.

[carusoam]

Conrad,

With all due respect... (even though my response won’t appear very respectful at all...)

1) How do you separate what you are suggesting from the key words “green washing”

2) for a green flight, does flying LOP count?

3) When adding to crap in the atmosphere... the LL isn’t getting you any environmental awards...

4) attracting attention in any way... then claiming you made a green flight... you would have to back that up with some form of science, no?

5) The solution to the world’s problem is on a much grander scale than a few GA planes taking the day off...

6) My mpg isn’t quite as good as my old cars get... but it does fly fewer miles to go the same distance... straight line from here to there...

7) I spent three years in my early career working on the development of biodegradable polymers... I earned quite a few green credits back in the day...I also learned that 10s of millions of dollars won’t get you very far on this topic...

The result... still exists in California...     https://www.storopack.us/products/flexible-protective-packaging/loose-fill/renaturer/

8) What size donation for each flight are you suggesting? Is this pennies, or AMUs..?

9) Think BIG!

10) Think Measurable!

11) Don’t accidentally draw attention to something that is a minute drop in a global ocean...

12) Is this your first environmental foray, or do you have a string of environmental superfund cleanup sites in your background..?

13) Think grand scale...

14) then look at other countries that don’t have an EPA, and have no intention of following your guidance...

15) You are not alone...

16) Ever clean up a local park? Or convert a brownfield site to park land?

17) Where do you want to start?

18) how far do you want to go?

19) How willing are you to go the distance?

20) I was so looking forward to having the LL removed from my 100LL...

21) Thinking about your Environmental Impact is a great first step...  Some people go to the extent of getting a degree in environmental engineering, possibly a master’s degree to go with that... then a law degree...

22) everyone has some skill they have developed in their lifetime... it is awesome when they use that skill in other places...

23) Often around MS... you will see some threads about volunteering... 

• giving rides to ill people
• giving rides to dogs
• giving rides to veterans 
• giving rides to goods after a storm

These are an excellent example of a Measurable benefit...

 

So...  I am in full agreement with what you are saying.

To make an environmental impact, it’s going to take a lot more than a few cents per hour to make it measurable...

Imagine if I wasn’t in agreement...

Expect this may devolve into a political discussion... let’s not go there. The thread risks getting shut down quickly.

 

A few things MSers usually appreciate...  

• lowering the cost of flying
• improving efficiency... (each time we do this... it helps the environment...)
• going faster...

Paying more to have an unmeasurable result didn’t make the list...

Don’t fall for the green washing... they will take your money and try to make you feel good about it... while you get nothing in return.

Have you seen a guy in your area talk about stake holders..? Some people work on serious challenges... and they take it to a much higher level...   watch Marc Benioff... (a great example) the earth is the ultimate stake holder... with  many homeless people needing some help along the way...

Hmmm.... if you are a shareholder in Marc’s company, you will be supporting a few good initiatives.... and could possibly make a buck for yourself along the way, on average, over time... 

PP thoughts only, everyone should partake in an environmental project of their choice... when able.

Best regards,

-a-

[1964-M20E]

Most of the time when I fly I use less gas than if I drive.

[Eight8Victor]

My daily driver gets 14.4 mpg, my fun car gets 11 mpg, my Mooney gets around 20 mpg. I never think about my environmental impact. Why? Because my environmental impact is basically nothing compared to that of the environmental elitist activists that constantly try to shame the rest of us for impacting the environment.  
 

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, Eight8Victor said:

My daily driver gets 14.4 mpg, my fun car gets 11 mpg, my Mooney gets around 20 mpg. I never think about my environmental impact. Why? Because my environmental impact is basically nothing compared to that of the environmental elitist activists that constantly try to shame the rest of us for impacting the environment.  
 

Yes, and they all fly around in private jets (way cool) to tell us we need to quit burning carbon. The highest carbon per seat mile you can do.

[Tony Starke]

3 hours ago, Conrad said:

But at that point the sea levels will have risen so many feet that I think many of us will have bigger problems.

I live near the coast and have been fishing, camping and beaching for most of my life. As a matter of fact, I was at the coast yesterday and had lunch with a few good friends and guess what? The ocean is still where it was 40 years ago when I used to walk the beach as a young man. The dining establishment we ate at has pictures of the beach from the 50’s when the building was built and I’ll be damned, the ocean was in the same place in the 50’s as it is now.  I’m no Einstein but I would be willing to put a rather large wager on the ocean being in the same spot in say 20 years. 

[Tony Starke]

5 hours ago, Conrad said:

Does this sound like the sort of thing people here might want or use?



 

No

[carusoam]

Our East coast beach gets put back each year.... by giant sand vacuuming machinery....

Stuff that was built near the ocean looks like it has gone out to sea.... many light houses have been relocated over the centuries...

The rebuilding of the beaches is relatively a new technology....

Each year the beach gets removed and refreshed by the local hurricane force winds....

Miles long, hundreds of feet out, and an unknown depth....

Big business, but worth every penny....

Add to that... sand dunes with root growing plants to hold a natural blockade for hurricane protection...

Steel walls around marinas, and areas with homes....

The environment is an incredibly Powerful force...

Best regards,

-a-

[philiplane]

If all 200,000 private planes in the US stopped flying, it would not move the needle in a world of 7 BILLION people. The poorest are often the worst polluters, burning lignite and sometimes dung to cook and heat. The same folks dump sewage and trash into their rivers.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, Conrad said:

We befit from doing something that harms other people. I don't see how trying to avoid the ethical quandry makes anyone a chump. Certainly it would be important to ensure that the money goes where it's supposed to, but it's silly to say that money can't help slow or stop climate change.

As to 201MK's response, I find it rather cynical. We're all here because we think that flying is worth the costs, which are high. To take the most simplistic view possible, if we ran the earth out of fossil fuels what do you think we'll put in our engines? But at that point the sea levels will have risen so many feet that I think many of us will have bigger problems.

Perhaps you should start by improving the ecology of your streets.

[Browncbr1]

One go around of a kc140 dumps more byproduct into the air than my mooney will in 500 hours of operation. Probably more like 2000 or more hours.    At my home field, navy kc140s do touch and goes all day long everyday.   

Forget about it.  

[TCC]

Even if you take every energy-saving step, if you are a human, you will leave a carbon footprint. Theoretically, carbon offsets counteract the greenhouse gas emissions that cannot avoid being caused. If simply being alive requires an ‘ethical’ donation to offset your existence, there seems to be an issue with understanding ethics, as none of us made the moral decision to be born.

 

Seems to me like carbon offset programs are at the intersection of black magic and Ponzi schemes.

 

[eman1200]

Even if you take every energy-saving step, if you are a human, you will leave a carbon footprint.....

Keep in mind, the OP* isn’t suggesting any steps to save energy. He’s hiding behind the excuse of donating money to make himself feel better about burning avgas, while “getting likes” at the same time.

*I say OP but my troll meter is pegged pretty high.

[Skates97]

6 hours ago, Conrad said:

But at that point the sea levels will have risen so many feet that I think many of us will have bigger problems.

When the ones preaching this fear mongering about rising sea levels quit buying properties which would be underwater in their theoretical future I "might" start paying attention. 

I've seen a lot of things on MS in the past three years, I think this is the first climate activist I've seen... Hopefully the last...

[Yooper Rocketman]

I think there is a real possibility WE, mankind, “may” have impacted our environment some.   But, I also believe the biggest driver to Global Warming AND Climate Change is the money!!  Universities and Research Institutions getting government money to research it.  If the theory dies, so does the money stream.

That said, I’ve always been an advocate to leave this world a better place than when I entered it, at least as far as my contribution.  So, how does a guy flying a prop jet getting 10-12 MPG justify his impact?  How about providing an affordable solar product that today eliminates 10,000 KW hours of mainstream energy a day.  Yep, 10 Megawatts of daily power generated from a DIY solution I’ve made affordable through my “sideline business”.  

https://www.aluminum-solar-absorbers.com/   (and yes, I need to update my site!!).

And ironically, most who pound the drum of Climate Change and Global Warming do virtually nothing besides pound the drum.  My wife and I have been recycling and implementing leading edge energy saving technologies for 30 years, without fanfare.   Yet I get beat up because I’m not a “true believer”.

Tom

[kmyfm20s]

Maybe you could use the money donated to do an airplane buyback and get them out of the air! Lol!!

[tigers2007]

If we cannot solve all global issues simultaneously then which ones do we solve first? That question makes activists heads explode. Is stopping a giant earth-bound meteor from causing global chaos more important than preventing the ocean level from rising six inches about one-hundred years from now? Saving 100M human lives from dying by preventable disease and malnutrition more or less important than trash in the ocean? What does the most good for the most people and has the most effect? Living in a generally cold climate with $0.20+ per kW/hr electricity, I embrace energy-saving innovations like Tom's solar absorbers and solar panels. Making people travel inefficiently doesn't seem to contribute anything to the underlying problems. If anything, it will make me drive my SUV great distances. Meanwhile China burns tires and plastic to power their factories. I quit recycling years ago after an "environmentalist" co-worker of mine recommended it as the cost of recycling is ridiculous and it has created more harm to the environment than good. The energy and resources that recycling consumes is shocking and then much of it ends up in a landfill anyways. I'm confident that one day recycling will be perfected and monetized appropriately so that it will be mutually effective for the consumer, capitalists, and of course the environment. I digress...

[wcb]

9 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I think there is a real possibility WE, mankind, “may” have impacted our environment some.   But, I also believe the biggest driver to Global Warming AND Climate Change is the money!!  Universities and Research Institutions getting government money to research it.  If the theory dies, so does the money stream.

That said, I’ve always been an advocate to leave this world a better place than when I entered it, at least as far as my contribution.  So, how does a guy flying a prop jet getting 10-12 MPG justify his impact?  How about providing an affordable solar product that today eliminates 10,000 KW hours of mainstream energy a day.  Yep, 10 Megawatts of daily power generated from a DIY solution I’ve made affordable through my “sideline business”.  

https://www.aluminum-solar-absorbers.com/   (and yes, I need to update my site!!).

And ironically, most who pound the drum of Climate Change and Global Warming do virtually nothing besides pound the drum.  My wife and I have been recycling and implementing leading edge energy saving technologies for 30 years, without fanfare.   Yet I get beat up because I’m not a “true believer”.

Tom

 

Everyone needs to watch Leonard Nimoy as he warned us in 1979 about the "Hunger and Death on a scale unprecedented in ALL of history".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by wcb

[cliffy]

N201MKturbo +++

Our town just dropped recycle trash day collection after just a short time as we have no place that wants to take it for recycling. We have to truck ALL trash a hundred of miles to a land fill and there is no recycling depot that will take the recycle trash! 

The best laid plans of mice and men. Unintended consequences?  Poor planning? YUP!

We do need to do what we can to not lay waste to the earth but more can be accomplished for more people in other ways than Carbon Offsets. Clean water for one. Many in the world have no safe water to drink. 

Focus on the real problems to get real results. 

It was said many decades ago-   Follow the money!

To answer the OPs question-  NO

[Eight8Victor]

10 hours ago, wcb said:

 

Everyone needs to watch Leonard Nimoy as he warned us in 1979 about the "Hunger and Death on a scale unprecedented in ALL of history".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank God for global warming, this would have been devastating...

[Ibra]

If I think green and fun: I do long hours of solo gliding in clean and calm air, the max was 7h with zero emission, tough sun heating on those thermal days is a bit excessive but that is not my fault other than that I just think green and money: I fly direct to places with friends/family in aircraft LOP 

Last resort, for touring trips I fly a slick Mooney/Diamond and I rarely touch those square or oval size Cessna/Bonanza, in the long run it has less impact on the planet 

Obviously, if one wants to do very good to the planet, the best is avoid having childrens but where is the fun in that? 

[DXB]

Let's face it - we burn leaded gas at rich dirty mixtures with no catalytic converter and generally get poor gas mileage. You'd have to feel at least a little bad about the environmental impact of our primitive piston planes even based on what was known 40 years ago, well before the overwhelming evidence for CO2 emissions driving climate change was developed.  Of course it's a drop in the bucket compared to vast quantities of CO2 emitted by turbines of transport category aircraft. But there's nothing wrong with @Conrad wanting to take responsibility for the environmental impact of this great privilege that we share and few others get to experience.  I'm not yet sure the carbon offset donations he highlights are the best path, but I think his motivations are correct, and I hope that our community does develop some leadership to help address our part in the problem.