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Planegary

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Am based at a very short field 2228’. If I read the manual correctly then 1.3 Vso is 74 in my 1965 E model. Local guys are telling me I don’t need to get any slower that 75 minimum on final. I have been looking at the manuals and cannot find a recommended short field speed so what speed do you guys recommend for final and over the fence speeds? Any input is appreciated. I have been coming mom over the fence about 72 and it seems too fast but thought I would like more experienced opinions.  Thanks in advance for the input

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Yes I just didn’t know it the plane had any suprises  hidden for me as I got slow and sidmt want to  learn about them at 10 feet agl and honestly these guys were so adamant a lot being at 80 they had me aecond guessing myself and normal aircraft procedures

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For 40 years home base is less than 3000 with displaced thresholds.  I have been flying the Mooney at 70 MPH at light weights on short final.  When I flare, it does not float.  Like it that way.  Do it the same every time so it is easy at night. At higher weights, add 5 MPH.  Keep it simple and do it the same every time.  With the Bonanza I could land, roll out and only touch the brakes to stop at the hangar.  Haven't quite gotten there yet with the Mooney.

Yep, 2200' is not too short. Learn how to do it and you can fly to pretty much any airport. Sit around and watch others that don't know how.

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1.3 x Vso at gross for my E is 65 kias (75 mph ias). That's fine for final but unless there are petty gusty I want to be slower to cross the threshold. With an AoA, which automatically accounts for weight, 1.2 Vso (60 kias at gross) will greatly reduce needed runway.

The first taxiway at my home drome is about 1750' from the threshold. I was concentrating on being on speed and made that turn easily yesterday but routinely I'm too fast.  

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Taking the above into consideration...

The day you go to try your plan...

Go try it out landing on an imaginary airfield a few thousand feet high...

If you are expecting surprises... this would be a way to eliminate the surprises before trying it near the ground...

Essentially this type of practice is similar to slow flight, only temporary...

Keep in mind if surprises occur... stall ands spins may be a side effect... plan enough altitude for a safe recovery...

PP thoughts only... not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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Be on the look out for learning a few things...

Start with slow flight and maintain altitude... note how much power (MP) it takes to stay level...

How much rudder to keep the ball centered...

What speed the stall horn comes on...

What speed the stall buffet starts...

Any questions... bring your friendly neighborhood CFI along... 
 

No need to go all the way into a stall... but, be familiar with keeping the ball centered if you do... and all the rest of the recovery details...
 

you really want to know about these speeds so you are familiar with what is going on if you hear the stall horn during the landing and you are not inches off the ground...

my stall horn may chirp in the bumps over buildings on short final... if it comes on, hundreds of feet above the ground, lower the nose, then check the airspeed/power, something isn’t quite right...

for short fields... the objective is to minimize the energy prior to getting to the runway... two types of energy...

  • Speed...
  • Altitude...

What is in front of the runway... trees, buildings, roadway...?

be ready to go around...

Creep up on the experience by practicing the airspeed, descent rate, how close you want to be to the tall objects...

Once past the tall objects, slowing down to short final approach speed is good...

Find the landing video from Don Kaye... a real CFII... engineer, real estate guy, Bravo Pilot.... fan of modern technology....

Still not a CFI, just a PP...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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1 hour ago, Planegary said:

Thanks that is what I was looking for I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t on the edge of getting bit by something 

What I would do is go up to altitude and practice some approach to landing stalls & flight at minimum control airspeed at the weight you are planning on landing at. You need not get the airplane into a full, deep, stall or anything... just enough to see how much leeway you have, and how the airplane responds with a little bit of power in, when that power is pulled, how much flare authority you have, etc. Basically get a sense ahead of time at altitude how much reserve angle of attack you have at a particular speed & weight. Then, no surprises when you go land.

Edited by Immelman
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I flew my 1974 E Model for 19 years before moving into my new Ovation last year.

I would regularly fly into KSQL which is now 2,600' in length.  It used to be shorter, I believe 2,400'.  I never had any problem landing the E Model there, and had ample runway.  Same goes for the Ovation, which I have to be more careful with to be on speed and target altitude.  I would use 75 indicated airspeed on final, roll off the rest as you approach the threshold.  The plane will continue to "fly" at a lower speed prior to stalling the wing at 57 +/-.  Come in full flaps, full stall landing.  In an E model you should have little problem with 2,200' provided you practice with an instructor at your home airfield.

 

Two words of caution - don't land downwind and always be prepared to go around.  It's better to explain why you went around as opposed to explaining why you didn't go around.

 

When I got checked out in my E Model years ago, I landed on a 2,000' runway.  It was doable, but I wouldn't do it again.

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Reminder...

10kias excess... = 1k’ used up prior to touch down.... or 100’ per extra kia...

Have a go around point selected...

Adhere to it.

if not on the ground prior to that point... GA...

Touching down and deciding to go around, as you run out of runway, is a rented NJ Mooney thing.... it didn’t end well... don’t do that.

Best regards,

-a-

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I am based at a 2000ft strip. Have a table of correct Vrefs depending on my actual weight (incl. actual fuel) with me and use that. Over the fence, I pull the power and aim for 1.2 Vs0 over the numbers. Smooth landings with zero scare factor all the time. That is including crosswinds and the like.

The key is using a weight-dependent approach speeds (just like the big airplanes do).

Edited by Fry
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One additional thing to try: practice at a field with a longer runway until you can consistently get it how you like it for your home field.

Until you have the comfort you need to plant it how you want on your field, there will be a bit of pucker factor. Not necessarily a bad thing, but could lead to some less than optimal decision-making.

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16 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

For 40 years home base is less than 3000 with displaced thresholds.  I have been flying the Mooney at 70 MPH at light weights on short final.  When I flare, it does not float.  Like it that way.  Do it the same every time so it is easy at night. At higher weights, add 5 MPH.  Keep it simple and do it the same every time.  With the Bonanza I could land, roll out and only touch the brakes to stop at the hangar.  Haven't quite gotten there yet with the Mooney.

Yep, 2200' is not too short. Learn how to do it and you can fly to pretty much any airport. Sit around and watch others that don't know how.

My home base is 3000' runway. I used to be 100MPH on downwind, 90 base, 80 final. Found that I was floating too much on flare. Worked toward being below 80 mph on final, still too much float for my liking. Went and looked back at the POH. Full Flaps, and gear down, stall is 62 MPH! I now aim for 70 over the numbers and it's been smooth as silk.

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1 hour ago, Fry said:

Have a table of correct Vrefs depending on my actual weight

This ^^^.

I was chastised by a veteran CFI pilot for only knowing the book numbers and not MY numbers for Vs and Vso at various different weights.  Go up, stall the plane, record the results... repeat for different weights and build YOUR table.

I can now make the 900' turnoff whenever I want if I'm light and the 1700' turnoff when heavy with minimal braking.  It's not because I'm some great pilot, it's because I'm on-speed for MY plane.  At Mooney Summit this year, Bob Kromer said that if we fly the plane the way it was meant, we should be able to hit book numbers.  Book for my plane says I should be able to make that 900' turnoff at gross weight and 5000' density altitude and I'm no where near that yet!

That said, when I was first based at a 2000' field, I chickened out and went to a bigger airport about a dozen times before I was confident enough to land there.  Practice on the bigger runways until you are consistent.

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1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

My recommendation- Take a CFI up and go practice slow flight and learn how it handles and where your stall speed is and your 1.3VSO approach speed is. It will make it easier to fly that approach and flare with the stall horn chirping as the wheels touch with 0 float as recommended above.

Especially learning how it feels.   It still freaks me out a little bit how much it softens up as the speed comes down.    Knowing the right level of softness on the controls seems to help a lot.

Edited by EricJ
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Of course, what I  ALWAYS forget in these "gosh is my field too short" threads is a 2200 foot unoccluded strip is easily landed in a Mooney.  A 2200 foot strip with giant trees at either end isn't.  I always think the field is occluded because all the short fields hereabouts are.

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