Future of Mooney: Speculation thread

[Mooney in Oz]

Fuel consumption is much higher in a turbine, particularly the PT-6.

Fuel capacity is limited in a Mooney.

[carusoam]

When comparing the piston engine for 200amu to the turbine engine for 500 to 1kamu...

Also keep in mind the TBO o and hot section inspections that go with them...

The overall engine costs get closer over the total ownership period...

Amazing...

But, getting an unexpected engine destruction... like a bad Lycoming cam... that would be disastrous...

Jerry, do the  PT6A-35s have a ‘TBO’ to work with? A time between 100amu hot section inspections...? Or something like that?

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Stephen]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

When comparing the piston engine for 200amu to the turbine engine for 500 to 1kamu...

Also keep in mind the TBO o and hot section inspections that go with them...

The overall engine costs get closer over the total ownership period...

Amazing...

But, getting an unexpected engine destruction... like a bad Lycoming cam... that would be disastrous...

Jerry, do the  PT6A-35s have a ‘TBO’ to work with? A time between 100amu hot section inspections...? Or something like that?

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

PT6 Hot Section Inspection and TBO intervals:

https://www.pt6a.aero/maintenance/pt6a-tbo-hsi-service-intervals/ 

Flat rate overhaul seem to run about $300-400K ish +/-

Hot Section seems to be $15-150K ish...depending

 

Of course you have higher fuel cost but fewer flight hours incurred given the same trips... 

 

 

[0TreeLemur]

The economics of gas turbine engines only make sense on larger airframes.  A PT6 on anything smaller than a Pilatus is an expensive toy because it won't be very useful except for entertainment (e.g. Draco).   While the power density of turbine engines is enormous, so is the fuel flow.   Taking advantage of the engine requires enough seats to justify the expense, and enough fuel to allow decent endurance.    Four seats and 1000 lb UL ain't enough and never will be, not with an engine that can drink 350 PPH in cruise.

 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The economics of gas turbine engines only make sense on larger airframes.  A PT6 on anything smaller than a Pilatus is an expensive toy because it won't be very useful except for entertainment (e.g. Draco).   While the power density of turbine engines is enormous, so is the fuel flow.   Taking advantage of the engine requires enough seats to justify the expense, and enough fuel to allow decent endurance.    Four seats and 1000 lb UL ain't enough and never will be, not with an engine that can drink 350 PPH in cruise.

 

So STC some tip tanks!

  

[toto]

Pilatus now sells the PC-12 NGX with a 5000-hour TBO. That could mean that your hourly overhaul set-aside is actually cheaper for the PT6 than for the Lycoming. (Well, if you assume that you're buying a brand new engine at overhaul.)

While we're talking PT6, I, for one, can't wait for the press release that says "due to unsustainably high demand for new TBM turboprops, Daher-Socata is invoking its contractual right to compel Mooney International to resume production of all US-destined TBM aircraft from its Kerrville, Texas facility. This change is effective immediately and will continue until further notice. Production of new M20 models will resume once the current TBM sales backlog is satisfied."

[jetdriven]

You don’t set aside money for a 5000hr TBO engine like you do a piston.   Usually you just devalue the selling price to reflect that.  Saving up for hot section inspections probably isn’t a a bad idea. 

[toto]

38 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I hope that you are prepared to wait a long time for that press release.

Yeah, I didn't mean that seriously

I was just reading an article on the TBM earlier this week and was lamenting what could have been.

[Blue on Top]

On 11/30/2019 at 2:16 PM, Hank said:

So STC some tip tanks!

  

If you think stall/spin characteristics are questionable now, … wait 'til you get tip tanks

A turboprop is just a totally different animal (yes, clean sheet would be the least expensive).

[0TreeLemur]

NooMooney LLC?

[Blue on Top]

33 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

NooMooney LLC?

Now that’s just funny people 

[shorrick mk2]

There are other nice retracts out there.

https://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=48047

[Cargil48]

6 hours ago, shorrick mk2 said:

There are other nice retracts out there.

https://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=48047

How much will it cost to the factory to get this plane universally certified?

[aidanf]

Put a diesel in it - the CD 300 from continental cranks out 300HP - sure its heavier but way more economical - you could carry 70 gallons of Jet A instead of 100 of Avgas - thats 180 pounds of savings, and with the extra horsepower you could add a parachute and some useful load by replacing that enormous manpower intensive aluminium spar with a carbon fibre one.

[Austintatious]

I thought this engine looked like a shoe in for mooney  https://www.pbsaerospace.com/our-products/tp-100-turboprop-engine

It is about 350 lbs lighter than a TSIO520.  And With the 78 gal tanks you are carrying  and extra 80 lbs of fuel but are still 270 lbs lighter.   Put the batteries up front to help with balance and with small tanks you have a 2.5 hr range at a solid 200 knots. 

If you have the 105 gallon tanks  you have about 3 hours range.

 

Definitely cuts down on range, but you can probably climb right on up high and have that turbine smoothness and can buy cheaper gas.

 

 

 

[carusoam]

241hp for departure...

188 HP in Cruise... burning about 28 gph...

130hp is 65% bhp of the IO360’s 200hp max.... great for the usual cruise speed of a M20J...
 

Estimating the ability to cruise on 130hp using the TP100 ... about 20gph

Realistically, like flying a TN’d or TC’d Mooney... not running out of HP as altitude increases...

Flown in the lower FLs.... the limit is not any red box, Just a red line at Vne... and of course... TUC...

Make sure your O2 system has a back-up O2 system...

See if I did the math right...

I would be looking for something a touch more powerful for T/O... 310HP is good... 350 would be gooder...

Best regards,

-a- 

[Cargil48]

With a bird like this already flying, what did Mooney need a M10T for?? They should have bought the project, changed the shape of the tail and voilá!... (taken from the link about the TP-100 engine)

[Cargil48]

 

[Cargil48]

http://www.esposa-project.eu/en/efficient-systems-and-propulsion-for-small-aircraft-2.html

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, Cargil48 said:

 

I like it!

But why does his head look so cramped in a cockpit space shorter than his height?

[Cargil48]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I like it!

But why does his head look so cramped in a cockpit space shorter than his height?

I presume this is a VLA plus that the guy is way above average height...

[Volzalum]

1 hour ago, Cargil48 said:

I presume this is a VLA plus that the guy is way above average height...

It looks like he is wearing a parachute on his back too.

[Cargil48]

11 hours ago, Volzalum said:

It looks like he is wearing a parachute on his back too.

Correct. And logic, being it the first flight...

[Cargil48]

Remember me quoting some who say the Mooneys "sit too low"? Here is a good pic showing what they mean. 

[kpaul]

36 minutes ago, Cargil48 said:

Remember me quoting some who say the Mooneys "sit too low"? Here is a good pic showing what they mean. 

I wish I had a photo of it, but at OSH '16 I believe it was, Mooney put the plan in their booth on blocks.  They jacked up the plane and had custom made risers for the mains so the plane sat level.