chinoguym20

Factory Closed Down?

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2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

I think i know who this guy is.  His grammer structure is extremely similar to an ex chino employee who writes about Mooney in the glassdoor site in not too much glamour.  

Andrew

 

Not a surprise considering

  • that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
  • that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
  • that he started this topic,
  • the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
  • that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
  • that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
  • that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

  1. Shock,
  2. Denial,
  3. Anger,
  4. Bargaining,
  5. Depression,
  6. Testing, and
  7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

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36 minutes ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

  • that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
  • that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
  • that he started this topic,
  • the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
  • that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
  • that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
  • that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

  1. Shock,
  2. Denial,
  3. Anger,
  4. Bargaining,
  5. Depression,
  6. Testing, and
  7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Than lets hope he gets a good job in the aviation industry...

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The longer this drags on the harder it becomes to make a business case for Mooney as a going aircraft manufacturing concern. Posts in Beechtalk highlight the brain drain at Mooney.

We (Bison Aviation) hired their avionics manager and their chief inspector during the December furlough. When the factory opened back up I asked both of them what their plan was, knowing that they each had a long history with Mooney. I made it clear that I understood their position and that there would be no hard feelings or repercussions if they needed / wanted to go back. Both of them said they were sticking with us. I guess they had a pretty good idea what was coming.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=175253&start=30

Edited by 1980Mooney
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22 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I figured it was viable  when I paid $7000 for two ailerons, and then I had to spend two years finding 2 serviceable M20J corrugated elevators, the factory was not making them at the time because their heat treater was broken. But they were like $6000 apiece list price.

Things like gear doors and belly skins will always be in demand from people gearing up the airplanes. I think those are over $1000 each now too. Order every piece in the catalog and build yourself a new Ovation out of it and then see how many millions that cost.. 

Sorry to hear the J parts are so hard to find at a salvage yard.

I had no trouble finding my elevator.

Edited by MikeOH

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2 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

  • that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
  • that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
  • that he started this topic,
  • the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
  • that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
  • that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
  • that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

  1. Shock,
  2. Denial,
  3. Anger,
  4. Bargaining,
  5. Depression,
  6. Testing, and
  7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Well now that his sockpuppet has weighed in, I’m convinced!

I’m kidding, but using your second ever post on a lecture to everyone else about “StreetCred” makes for quite an introduction.  Just a thought!

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Hmmmm...

Street cred...?

Another phrase for insider information...?

Sounds dangerous to leave such details in open view, no?

Often in companies... there is a non-disclosure agreement that gets signed... to prevent disclosing details like these...

Where is the upside to this?

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the insider info...   just not much I can do with it...

Best regards,

-a-

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6 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

  • that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
  • that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
  • that he started this topic,
  • the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
  • that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
  • that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
  • that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

  1. Shock,
  2. Denial,
  3. Anger,
  4. Bargaining,
  5. Depression,
  6. Testing, and
  7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Mooneyspace used to be a nice place, where everyone was polite to each other, noone was rude.  Perhaps you did not see the "how to act on mooneyspace" sign before you jumped in for your second ever post or is it perhaps your 13th and you are chinoguym20 under a different handle.  The way your post is written that would not suprise me.  When you have learnt how to be polite to others, please return.  

With the humblest of respect.

Andrew

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Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)

In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

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24 minutes ago, tmo said:

Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)

In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

what a lovely expression.  

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Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)
In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

“One bad apple spoils the bunch”


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12 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

  • that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
  • that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
  • that he started this topic,
  • the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
  • that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
  • that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
  • that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

  1. Shock,
  2. Denial,
  3. Anger,
  4. Bargaining,
  5. Depression,
  6. Testing, and
  7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Clearly he has prior involvement with the company as well as some remaining contacts within it.  But he also may fit the disgruntled former employee profile - hardly a reliable source of  "accurate, fair and insightful" judgments. I see no reason to rely on such an individual (particularly an anonymous one) for insight into the future of the company, which is the main thing most of us here care about in addition to the welfare of the current employees.  

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Whatever our insider says or doesn't, the truth is fairly self evident.  The company is opening and closing the factory will nilly, treating the highly skilled employees like disposable assets.  Had I the money I'd not buy a new Mooney, no way.  No way to be certain I'd get an airplane after the check was cashed, no way to be certain there'd by anyone to honor the warranty.  I doubt they could even sell a handful of airplanes after all this.

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25 minutes ago, steingar said:

Whatever our insider says or doesn't, the truth is fairly self evident.  The company is opening and closing the factory will nilly, treating the highly skilled employees like disposable assets.  Had I the money I'd not buy a new Mooney, no way.  No way to be certain I'd get an airplane after the check was cashed, no way to be certain there'd by anyone to honor the warranty.  I doubt they could even sell a handful of airplanes after all this.

I have wondered what happens to the factory warranties on the recently sold planes. Just up in smoke or is there some sort of insurance policy on them that covers this contingency? If they evaporate that is a big monetary loss to the buyer.

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In a bankruptcy you become one of the company's creditors.  For this I don't know.  There's no debt, so there won't be a bankruptcy.  If the company simply shuttered and liquidated the factory I imagine there would be some entity against which one could seek recourse.  That said, good luck getting anything out of a Chinese entity.  Mooney is done selling aircraft in America.

Edited by steingar
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2 hours ago, steingar said:

In a bankruptcy you become one of the company's creditors.  For this I don't know.  There's no debt, so there won't be a bankruptcy.  If the company simply uttered and liquidated the factor I imagine there would be some entity against which one could seek recourse.  That said, good luck getting anything out of a Chinese entity.  Mooney is done selling aircraft in America.

I am curious to know if you are simply assuming that there is no debt in Mooney.  Clearly lots of cash flowed into Mooney International Corporation.  But unless you have seen the accounting books you don't know if it's immediate parent, Soaring America Corporation, used an equity infusion or used a debt instrument to Soaring America to book the cash transfer.  Saying it another way, Mooney may have a massive IOU debt to Soaring America and Soaring America could be Mooney's biggest creditor.  It's just a matter of how they have financed the business.  Additionally there may be some third party debt and there may be vendor advances and payables. Additionally if there is debt of any sort you don't know if it is secured or unsecured.  Since it has been reported that Mooney has welched on its commitment to pay employees holiday pay, we may assume they have no cash.  But Mooney likely has ongoing cash expenses for security, utilities and property taxes in Texas are due this month.  There may be outstanding law suits and new ones may be filed so there are probably bills from lawyers piling up.

Soaring America may choose to throw Mooney into bankruptcy in order to stop the continuing cash drain and limit potential future legal liabilities.  Or others may force it.  If they don't pay property taxes on the plant, which I assume are substantial, the City of Kerrville/School District/County (whichever is appropriate) will move to foreclose on the properties by yearend.  Vendors may be able to place liens on assets for non-payment.

If it does go into bankruptcy they may seek liquidation or alternatively seek reorganization.  If it is liquidation then there is no entity left to seek anything against.  Everyone that is owed anything by the company, (regardless of repayment of debt, vendor payables, warranties on planes, service agreements,  taxes payable, lawyers, pending lawsuits, utilities, etc) are creditors as you point out.  They all have to get in line in order to make their case to get a share of whatever asset can be turned into cash.  Each party has to make their case to the bankruptcy judge that they should get some sort of priority.  Those that are secured may get 100% of what is owed while others that are unsecured may get cents on the dollar or nothing.  All parties will be hit with legal expenses further reducing the effective settlement, if any.  Once it is settled everyone gets what they get and there is no further obligation or recourse for anything.

If it is the reorganization route then the legal entity will survive, although it could have a different name.  Everyone that is owed anything is still a creditor but they need to make a case that they should get priority on being repaid (or warranty protected) from what might be a viable ongoing business.  The equity holders usually get crushed.  The problem is that some assets have to be turned into cash or someone needs to bring new cash to the company.  In that case the warranties could survive and be approved by the court if the judge believes that the "New Mooney" is viable enough to service its ongoing obligations.

Edited by 1980Mooney

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11 hours ago, tmo said:

Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)

In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

In the South it is:

"Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

Applies to so many things on the interwebs, doesn't it?

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XKCD for those who haven't seen it.  Explained here if anyone wants to do a "deep dive".

And also something about being beaten by experience... ;)

ps. try hovering the cursor over the comic

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1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am curious to know if you are simply assuming that there is no debt in Mooney. 

Here is where I get really fuzzy.  Mooney is owed by a  Chinese entity.  I doubt strongly that the Chinese entity could borrow money from an American financial institution to resuscitate Mooney.  Indeed, I doubt Mooney's owners could borrow from anyone to resuscitate Mooney.  On paper it really didn't look like a money winner, especially when trying to certify a brand new clean sheet diesel aircraft made from advanced materials and do it in a hurry.  I always thought that Soaring America Corporation had some Chinese government component. The only thing that really makes sense to me is the Chinese might be willing to dump some cash if it means that they get a door open to develop GA in China.

If Soaring America borrowed money, they almost certainly did so in China at the behest of the Chinese government.  I can't imagine any moneylender anywhere would be gullible enough to loan them money for Mooney.  It makes no financial sense to anyone with enough financial sense to be involved in finance.  So if the debt is foreign, who do they declare bankruptcy here in the US?  I genuinely don't know.

I doubt in the strongest terms that there is any debt associated with Mooney.  I can't believe anyone with money would be stupid enough to lend it for that.

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Here is where I get really fuzzy.  Mooney is owed by a  Chinese entity.  I doubt strongly that the Chinese entity could borrow money from an American financial institution to resuscitate Mooney.  Indeed, I doubt Mooney's owners could borrow from anyone to resuscitate Mooney.  On paper it really didn't look like a money winner, especially when trying to certify a brand new clean sheet diesel aircraft made from advanced materials and do it in a hurry.  I always thought that Soaring America Corporation had some Chinese government component. The only thing that really makes sense to me is the Chinese might be willing to dump some cash if it means that they get a door open to develop GA in China.
If Soaring America borrowed money, they almost certainly did so in China at the behest of the Chinese government.  I can't imagine any moneylender anywhere would be gullible enough to loan them money for Mooney.  It makes no financial sense to anyone with enough financial sense to be involved in finance.  So if the debt is foreign, who do they declare bankruptcy here in the US?  I genuinely don't know.
I doubt in the strongest terms that there is any debt associated with Mooney.  I can't believe anyone with money would be stupid enough to lend it for that.



Reread 1980Mooney’s post above: short version - even if there isn’t “debt” as you typically think of it - is a loan from a bank - there are trade creditors (suppliers, tax authorities etc) and employees. These entities can demand payment and, if the US entity doesn’t have the ability to pay, can eventually get to a bankruptcy. They can’t reach back up the chain to the parent - but they can force resolution in the US. The parent could then put more money in to satisfy those obligations, or, probably more likely, allow for a bankruptcy (or other liquidation) process to play out.





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Ummm, dad... I’m gonna need another loan...

How does that work?

Is this a company that needs to follow the usual guidelines of a US public company?

Or is it privately owned, and has to pay its bills as expected?

:)

-a-

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3 hours ago, steingar said:

Here is where I get really fuzzy.  Mooney is owed by a  Chinese entity.  I doubt strongly that the Chinese entity could borrow money from an American financial institution to resuscitate Mooney.  Indeed, I doubt Mooney's owners could borrow from anyone to resuscitate Mooney.  On paper it really didn't look like a money winner, especially when trying to certify a brand new clean sheet diesel aircraft made from advanced materials and do it in a hurry.  I always thought that Soaring America Corporation had some Chinese government component. The only thing that really makes sense to me is the Chinese might be willing to dump some cash if it means that they get a door open to develop GA in China.

If Soaring America borrowed money, they almost certainly did so in China at the behest of the Chinese government.  I can't imagine any moneylender anywhere would be gullible enough to loan them money for Mooney.  It makes no financial sense to anyone with enough financial sense to be involved in finance.  So if the debt is foreign, who do they declare bankruptcy here in the US?  I genuinely don't know.

I doubt in the strongest terms that there is any debt associated with Mooney.  I can't believe anyone with money would be stupid enough to lend it for that.

The U.S. borrows from the Chinese every day by selling Treasury bills, etc.

The Chinese don't have debt, they have a surplus. Back around 2008 when the U.S. had a $13 Trillion National Debt, the Chinese had nearly a Trillion dollar Surplus. The U.S. now has a $23 Trillion Debt and almost $7 Trillion of that is held by Foreign Countries (if you stacked $1 bills, $7 Trillion  stacked would be 441 miles high or 2,328,480 feet).

The Chinese would not need to borrow money from anyone, let alone a U.S. Financial Institution. The Chinese buy American companies for intellectual property. The few relative dollars they put into a company is peanuts compared to what they learn. China has been massively building infrastructure which includes aviation. What they have learned by owning Mooney and Cirrus will bear fruit in China down the road, if not right now. They will also produce airplanes with much more discipline in China and sell them globally. This exercise might just have been to learn how the FAA approval process works.

https://usdebtclock.org/#

 

If the Chinese wanted to keep Mooney going it would be no problem for them. I'm pretty sure they have learned what they wanted to learn and are now moving on. 

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If Mooney does not declare bankruptcy they are still liable for warranty claims and the company can be sued for failure to honor that commitment. In fact getting out of warranty liability is a primary reason many companies declare bankruptcy.

 

-Robert

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37 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Is this a company that needs to follow the usual guidelines of a US public company?

Or is it privately owned, and has to pay its bills as expected?

:)

-a-

The list of privately-owned companies in the US that don't pay their bills is extremely long.

A debtor would only force bankruptcy if they thought it was worthwhile, e.g., they could obtain assets that made the cost of the bankruptcy process profitable.   It might be difficult to assess the cost of that fight against a private foreign entity, and with uncertain returns I suspect most wouldn't pick that fight.  I think even the TCDS (a potential asset) has been demonstrated over the last decade to not be very valuable.  I don't know who owns the real estate, and any equipment and tooling is also of limited value due to location, condition, etc..   Corporations default on commercial loans pretty regularly and stay in business without declaring bankruptcy.   When things get to that point all kinds of weird stuff can happen.

So the owners could pay to maintain whatever they think is worth maintaining, e.g., the TCDS, real estate, equipment, inventory, etc., but if they decide it's not worth paying to maintain that stuff or honoring warranties, they can declare bankruptcy and it goes to whatever creditors there might be out there or whatever the applicable laws dictate for disposal.   I don't know where Mooney is incorporated, TX?  DE?  

We'll just have to spectate and see what plays out.   Given that it is a presumably well-funded private foreign entity that owns it, we can only speculate.   But speculation, usually rampant, uninformed speculation, is what the internet is for, so...  ;)

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54 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

If Mooney does not declare bankruptcy they are still liable for warranty claims and the company can be sued for failure to honor that commitment. In fact getting out of warranty liability is a primary reason many companies declare bankruptcy.

 

-Robert

Yes, but that is not a case that any lawyer would take on a contingency. Nor is it a case that any client should pay a lawyer to bring. Considering the cost of drafting the complaint, serving, proving up the case, getting a judgment and then a writ of execution -- in all likelihood the return on investment would be negative.

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