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Factory Closed Down?

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30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

...plus a constant.

;)

 

Not necessary - included when I stated the boundary conditions - but full points plus bonus points for raising the issue!

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25 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. I suspect that the last long shutdown during which only 9 (or 11?) heroic employees - Mike Miles, Frank Crawford , Stacey Ellis - were wearing many hats and keeping the company alive, albeit on life support, meant that cranking back up involved hiring more green employees than calling back old hands. The result... a Chinese fire drill, a phrase that I suspect is no longer polite.

I’m sorry for clarity if I seem daft but are you saying that the factory was just incapable of producing product (almost any) despite demand with current personnel?

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Just now, aviatoreb said:

Not necessary - included when I stated the boundary conditions - but full points plus bonus points for raising the issue!

I knew you had implied the limits were present, I just consider "...plus a constant," to be the integral math joke equivalent of, "That's what she said."  ;) 

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28 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. I suspect that the last long shutdown during which only 9 (or 11?) heroic employees - Mike Miles, Frank Crawford , Stacey Ellis - were wearing many hats and keeping the company alive, albeit on life support, meant that cranking back up involved hiring more green employees than calling back old hands. The result... a Chinese fire drill, a phrase that I suspect is no longer polite.

My Chinese wife and children would agree.

Clarence

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8 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I knew you had implied the limits were present, I just consider "...plus a constant," to be the integral math joke equivalent of, "That's what she said."  ;) 

:-) 

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On 11/15/2019 at 5:53 PM, aviatoreb said:

I’m sorry for clarity if I seem daft but are you saying that the factory was just incapable of producing product (almost any) despite demand with current personnel?

Erik, my information would have to be considered hearsay but it has been pretty common knowledge for months -  stuff like outsourcing painting to Longview, and when the plane returns to Kerrville for panel and interior the paint gets damaged so it's then back to Longview for paint touchup,... it's taking 6000+ man-hours to build a plane, even so there are fit and finish issues, ergo the Chinese fire drill label.

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1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

Erik, my information would have to be considered hearsay but it has been pretty common knowledge for months -  stuff like outsourcing painting to Longview, when the plane returns to Kerrville for panel and interior, than back to Longview to repair damaged paint,... 6000+ man-hours, fit and finish issues, ergo the Chinese fire drill label.

It’s why I asked it’s not common knowledge to me / Not that I’m doubting / just confirming that is what you meant since it’s surprising.

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1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. 

Beechcraft has only sold 5 Bonanzas through the first 9 months of 2019.

Premier had an Ovation Ultra listed and unsold for months earlier this year. Also had one or two Acclaims in inventory for awhile. Point is, at least as late as August, Mooney was manufacturing and selling product to its dealers that no end-user had actually ordered. Supply was out-pacing demand.

Just seems like if there was a backlog of customers waiting for Mooney to fulfill their orders, we would have heard from at least some of those anxious customers here on MS. 

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Very sad. This may all be true that Cirrus has kicked Mooney's butt. However, the Acclaim is a beautiful airplane. Personally I would take a new Acclaim over a new Cirrus. 

Edited by RonM
Typo
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The three rules of marketing. PPP. Product, price, promotion. Failure on all three fronts. Beech failed for years on price, but stayed alive. Cessna has failed on product, but still manages to keep the 172  and 182 alive. Mooney, needed to amp the product, overpriced it and only let dealer do the heavy lift on promotion. You can sell freezers to Eskimos, it is just a matter of PPP.

I also find the CAPS argument interesting. Amsafe makes the "airbag seatbelt" retrofit for every Mooney and indeed most GA aircraft for a very modest price of 2500 dollars. Other than a CAPS, it represents the most bang for the buck safety retrofit you can buy. How many of you have purchased that system?

 

 

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Earlier this year I commented on the marketing success of Cirrus Design.  While it is not built to the quality of the Mooney, Cirrus sells aircraft and gets pilots into planes at an impressive rate.

Cirrus is vertically integrated, and they've created a culture among their owners that keeps them coming back for more.  I have flown the SR-22 line, and I have a little more than 25 hours in them.  they're a great bird.  Are they comparable to a Mooney?  Not even close.  In fact, I smoked an SR-22GTS the other day by 40kts in level flight without even trying.  That said, Mooney failed to get the product out in front of the consumer, and I lay that blame squarely at their doorstep.  The product is fantastic, the pricing is really good when you look at the value & quality of the product, but the marketing has been horrible for many, many years.  

It goes to show you that you can manufacture a high quality product at a good value and fail because the market has no clue what you have to offer.  Relying on 3rd party sales reps who have no interest in the success of the product was the weak link in the supply chain.

 

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1 hour ago, pkofman said:

Order form on the website....

So just because I wanted to talk to someone and i was curious if anyone would respond I filled in the first steps new plane order form on the website.. I left my real email and phone number.  The form is for indicating interest in purchasing a new plane ( which by the way I would love ) but i was wondering if i would receive a call back from a human after the factory shutdown. ( remember ive owned a few Mooneys and love my Bravo)

The sad answer is "no follow up" on their end!!! Three days and counting!!!!

Looks like there is no interest in selling me a new plane!

All of you can determine what if anything that lack of response might mean to the longevity of the company 

If i ever get a response ill be sure to report back

Peter

 

 

 

 

Did you not read the first post in this thread that stated the phone was off and nobody would be responding to requests?
 

are you really interested in a new airplane or are you just stirring the pit trying to get information?  I’m sure the people that ARE there are too busy to deal with your garbage fishing.  

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On 11/14/2019 at 1:29 PM, RogueOne said:

George,

I am a LONG time Mooneyspace guy.  Your failure my friend is in not considering your audience.  I don’t fly over mountains.  I don’t fly at night.  If friends don’t wish to fly.  O.K. By me.  Later.  Lol.  We are on completely different wavelengths.  You need to justify nada to me.  The exercise is a waste of your time as there is ZERO likelihood of my purchasing a Cirrus...EVER.  I am just a happy “new to me” owner of a MOONEY typing on MOONEYSPACE.  So again...NOT EVEN CLOSE by the only definition that matters.  MINE.


Heads up, George is a very long term Mooney driver and now Cirrus driver.  Led AOPA Safety Foundation, Flew F-18’s in the NAVY, owned and M20F and M20S, now flies 767F’s for UPS.  He’s been a subject matter expert and speaker at Mooney Summit twice.  
 

George loves Mooney’s and is just giving his facts and point of view as we all are.

-Seth 

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Eps graphite v8 diesel.  400 hp on ~15gph and it can cruise setting on that.  So 265tas cruise mooney.  Cross continent range.

that and a auto land auto pilot.

ill take two please.

 

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11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Eps graphite v8 diesel.  400 hp on ~15gph and it can cruise setting on that.  So 265tas cruise mooney.  Cross continent range.

that and a auto land auto pilot.

ill take two please.

 

Awfully nice of you to buy me one, even if we never met. But I think we just became best friends. 

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4 hours ago, TGreen said:

Beechcraft has only sold 5 Bonanzas through the first 9 months of 2019.

Premier had an Ovation Ultra listed and unsold for months earlier this year. Also had one or two Acclaims in inventory for awhile. Point is, at least as late as August, Mooney was manufacturing and selling product to its dealers that no end-user had actually ordered. Supply was out-pacing demand.

Just seems like if there was a backlog of customers waiting for Mooney to fulfill their orders, we would have heard from at least some of those anxious customers here on MS. 

There are four barely broken in Acclaim Ultras for sale on Controller right now. 

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It seems that BRS would be possible in the new Ovations and Acclaims. Some UL may have to be sacrificed, and it seems that increasing the UL would be where Mooney should concentrate it's efforts (landing gear, plastic tail?). Mooney could also be more proactive in clarifying the distinct advantage it has over the competition. All that efficiency translates into lots more $ (not to mention time) saved over the competition, and that's never been made clear. For instance, 10 kts of higher speed translates into 20,000 nautical miles traveled over the life of a 2000 hr engine. Same can be said of fuel weight and range, you don't need as much UL because you don't need to carry as much fuel to go the same distance compared to the competition. Also, isn't a faster plane safer just by virtue of the fact that it's in the air less, less exposure? Certainly the airlines can testify to that.  Nothing on the website, or in comparison articles that I can find. It seems to me the new Ovations and Acclaims could afford to give up just a bit of that hard earned airframe refinement to allow at least some people to feel a bit safer. Does anyone know if Kerrville has investigated the possibility of an installation?

 

Jim

 

 

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Hey I certainly did not want to hack people off here, last thing on my mind. I have a strong interest in the factory remaining open and continuing support and I do want the good work at Kerrville to continue hopefully for many years to come. All I said is what I get from my people I coach (free of charge btw and in my spare time) who ask me about airplane ownership.

I fly my C model with pride and I have helped several prospective first time buyers to go the Mooney way, as for their budget and their mission profile the Mooneys were and are the best there is. I have yet to own anything brand new in terms of cars or planes: I currently drive my 3rd only car (since 18 and I am 57 now) and my 2nd plane. With my income, I will never buy a new plane in my life, but I know people who have done that. The guy who sold me my plane in 2009 went onto a SR22 and now a Vision jet.

But having been involved in aviation since 1983, I have seen the concerns and difficulties faced by buyers. And having the wife and family on board before they write a check is something which I regard as of paramount importance, lest either their stint with ownership is rather short before they are forced to resell or even break up of relationships. Seen both. And I know quite a few people who ended up going the BRS way in order to alleviate those fears successfully. Are they all whimps? Maybe in the view of some, similar to those who cave in and buy "boring" cars rather than fun vehicles or who give up riding motorcycles after the upteenth domestic dispute over it's dangers. I have also seen how people change dramatically once they have children, folks with a previously merry go happy attitude turn into ultra conservative and over protective parents who hardly want their kids to ride in a car, let alone in a plane. Again, I know quite a few pilots who stopped flying for this reason.

I stand by what I said, if Mooney wants to compete in this market, and not only Mooney for that matter, they will need to address these concerns. While the M20 is undoubtedly one of the best airplanes ever developped, the design is aged and they will not be able to hang onto this one product forever. One concern I've had for long is also the lack of a entry level model equivalent to the SR20/22 line up. The M10 could have done that but apparently that design was very badly flawed.

I am glad however to hear that the figures circulating on the net are false and the produced number is higher with sales pending. I hope they really will be back to work on Monday.

 

(And yes, but hardly to the point, English is not my first language... my 2nd actually. I grew up and am based in Switzerland, so German is my mothertongue (both German and Swiss German) followed by English, which I speak in my daily life and French and Bulgarian. Thankfully I don't post in the latter two... there would have to be a lot more issues with my spelling then :) )

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Another thought,

Maybe Mooney wasn't purchased for the sales and profitable cash factor, but rather for the technology and mfg. processes.

They have both now.

Bye, Bye........

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18 hours ago, M016576 said:

Let me know the details, Seth- I’m interested too... maybe we can get a group buy going... @RogueOne

PM me for costs.  Mine is already ordered and will be on my Missile flying early next year.

-Seth

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From a certification perspective - it would be less trivial to put a BRS in a Mooney than a Cirrus, or retrofit to a C172/182, because of the retractable gear and also because the gear are quite firm with picks rather than cantilever - I would think.  From the gear perspective I would think the gear need to be down since part of the BRS idea is it still hits the ground hard enough that special seats are part of the Cirrus system and I don't know how that would work in a Mooney with our firm gear even if down, and would new seats be needed - if so perhaps highly sprung seats could make up the gap?  And I doubt that the system would be viable with gear up since that would be quite a hard pancake landing indeed leading to spinal compression injuries - perhaps fatal ones - so any BRS system would have to be coupled to gear actuation mechanisms.  Luckily Mooney has pretty quick gear swing probably on the order of the speed of a relatively low altitude BRS deployment and landing.  All this weight aside.  I do think all this could be overcome from an engineering perspective - but I don't know if from a price or certification perspective.

Then the weight thing - that too could be overcome if enough changes are afoot.  For example - I am very impressed with the EPS V8 graphite diesel.  400hp on 15gph and that is accessible at cruise settings nonstop.  That would make a 265TAS Mooney.  So imagine you can actually cruise at 265-270kts? instead of just brag 242 kts at take off setting that no one does.  Or cruise at 225 its at 10,000 ft.  Then the speed differential becomes so extreme that well its more like a TBM kinda speed.  BUT that is not the most important part - at 15gph for that kind of speed - you can either still have your 130 gallon that makes KJFK-KLAX range - or - you can truly carry a small amount of fuel now to make for enough weight to travel with 4 people.

And to lighten up - a new wing - a carbon fiber wing - smoother-fasterr, lighter, faster to build, maybe cheaper?  Build the wing outsourced in a specialty carbon shop.  Maybe even off shore and bring it to Kerrville as a build shop - maybe rent the 747 beluga for the supply chain (haha).  I am just amazed by carbon - I have carbon bike wheels.  I rowed all summer in a carbon rowing scull by fluid design - we are talking a 27'' boat weighing in at 14kg, including hardware - ok it is a paper thin rowing shell but amazingly strong to resist me a heavyweight full power and stiff but still durable - AND easy to build and repair - this very same boat in its history fell of the truck - literally the team didn't tie it down well to the transport truck and it fell off at highway speed and was broken badly.  But being carbon fiber a local craftsmen repaired it so it seems as good as new.  Carbon fiber work is a highly trainable skill.  I would think if they can do a front cowl, then they could do a full wing as yet another bolt on replacement to the factory build.

AND we are all very impressed with the new auto land autopilots.  A much better solution if we are talking pilot incapacitation than a parachute.  Saving the parachute for other extreme scenarios.

I am not selling parachutes as safer but I am fully sold that parachutes sell airplanes and I am sold that if Mooney should survive they need to jump on the BRS train.

Edited by aviatoreb
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5 hours ago, Seth said:

PM me for costs.  Mine is already ordered and will be on my Missile flying early next year.

-Seth

I tried to PM you and it says that “Seth can’t receive messages”.. maybe too many in your inbox?  Try to PM me... maybe we can get it to work that way!  I’m dying for details- this mod will be AWESOME on a Missile!  40lbs more useful load and shifts the CG aft???  That’s probably almost 1200lbs useful for you...Sign me up!

Edited by M016576
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On 11/12/2019 at 8:08 PM, GeorgePerry said:

Sorry but this is emotional hyperbole not backed up by NTSB safety statistics.  Nor is it commensurate with proven business and sales results.  https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/quarterly-shipments-and-billings/

Mooney is faster and more efficient than Cirrus SR22, but the Cirrus has outsold the Ovation and Acclaim and Ultra 30-40 to 1.  

I am looking for a plane and the first thing my wife ask is " are we getting the one with the parachute " statistics are one thing but the flying public who are not as informed the chute matters, That's why the cirrus are selling like crazy, the perception or not of added safety. My search for my perfect plan continues with wife looking over my shoulder and hoping for the one with the parachute.

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