chinoguym20

Factory Closed Down?

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How far?  Most ovations can carry 4 FAA standards 2+ hours...

As long as TKS or A/C isn’t installed and little or no baggage, you’re right. I looked at a 2000 O2 with TKS, that’s still for sale, with a UL of 917. With only 50 gallons of fuel we can all do the math. My point is not to bash these fantastic planes we fly but to point out a weakness I would like to see addressed. I’m glad I found the Ovation I purchased because I don’t think I would ever be happy with a Cirrus. Coming from a J with a UL of 900, I just wanted an airplane that could carry a load and feel lucky I found it.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, HRM said:

Easy to lengthen, very difficult to widen.

What Mooney are you flying @1980Mooney?

“Very Difficult to widen” because.....because...?  This is a welded cage.  The structural engineers couldn’t come up with a wider design?  No innovative insight? It might cost some money to do it right?  They might lose a knot? Some Mooney koolaid that says changes are not allowed and Mooney owners should be happy with the cabin that they have. Help me understand. 

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1980,

Changes at Mooney were plenty...

Find the year by year list of all the changes Mooney built...

You have latched onto some quirky ideas for a Mooney owner...

Wider cabins, and wing profiles that allow for more UL would be great...

The cost is using more power to go fast...

You are coming across as trying to be a Mooney basher...

How long do you expect this to last?

Go Cirrus! :wacko:

Best regards,

-a-

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I’m not optimistic that we will ever see the production of a new Mooney aircraft ever again. However there is most definitely money to be made making and selling the parts. I can’t imagine a scenario where someone doesn’t pick that part of the business up if the current owner doesn’t do it.

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7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

On the Ultra models Mooney went to the effort and expense to redesign the chromoly cage to accommodate a second door and to make the doors 4 inches longer along with a new composite shell.  Does anyone know or have any insight regarding why Mooney did not widen the cabin from its traditional 43.5 inch width to something more like the Cirrus 49 inch cabin (even it was just at the elbows or shoulders?) at the time?   Was this just a quick modification done on the cheap after blowing over $10 million on the failed M10T?  Why didn't they do it right to make it more of a game changer, at least by Mooney standards?

Perhaps their target market was not the USA but the rest of the world where we are all of normal size and build.  Why they then stopped marketting it to the rest of the world, ill never know.

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Am I the only one to wonder if this sudden shut down has anything to do with the Acclaim Accident we were following in another thread? This was a brand new Acclaim Ultra. 

 

Has anyone got any insights of what the investigation in this horrible event targets into? It has looked like an engine problem but possibly there is something else which would prompt this kind of abrupt action? 

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Am I the only one to wonder if this sudden shut down has anything to do with the Acclaim Accident we were following in another thread? This was a brand new Acclaim Ultra. 
 
Has anyone got any insights of what the investigation in this horrible event targets into? It has looked like an engine problem but possibly there is something else which would prompt this kind of abrupt action? 
On the Mooney Facebook group they said 2 of the 4 delivered acclaim Ultras were in fatal accidents. If that's true, it would make one wonder if the correlation is there.

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On the Mooney Facebook group they said 2 of the 4 delivered acclaim Ultras were in fatal accidents. If that's true, it would make one wonder if the correlation is there.

 

Yea, but is it a plane problem or a pilot problem dealing with the fast plane?

I think it was the latter.

 

Tom

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On 11/10/2019 at 5:26 PM, alextstone said:

@FloridaMan would you please share your list of parts you purchased? I was just talking with my wife about buying critical items if the factory reopens briefly...

Others, what would you include in your factory only critical parts list?

Alex

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If you were just considering wear (and not tear), I am sure one could come up with a good short list, but many people will be coming up with the same lists soon. When you add parts needed because of damage caused on the parking (damage to our M20J exclusively happened happened on the ground) you would have to add all the feathers sticking out (ailerons, tail, cowl, spinner, I don't know what). You would have to shop parts for up to the value of your plane or more. Really useful ?

Edited by j3gq
make it better

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7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

“Very Difficult to widen” because.....because...?  This is a welded cage.  The structural engineers couldn’t come up with a wider design?  No innovative insight? It might cost some money to do it right?  They might lose a knot? Some Mooney koolaid that says changes are not allowed and Mooney owners should be happy with the cabin that they have. Help me understand. 

Some companies have done a fine job of widening their airplanes.  These two airplanes for example have both excellent leg room and plenty of shoulder room thanks in part to modifications to the originally already successful airframes for larger shoulder room.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Dreamlifter#/media/File:Boeing,_N780BA,_B747-409(LCF)_Dreamlifter_-_PAE_(19833251496).jpg

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/interesting-airplanes/belugaxl-earns-easa-type-certification/

 

Edited by aviatoreb

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I have not seen in any of the primary announcements that this furlough is permanent, or that otherwise Mooney is closing operations permanently or semi permanently.

Could they -

-be temporarily closing for weeks to regroup or otherwise reorganize?

-could they be making a major shift in operations such as for example off shore building but perhaps they are still planning on building airplanes?  With the major cost being man hours, could they be following a typical multi-national corporate solution (like it or not) to ship all the tooling to a low cost man hours country to drive rivets for Pennys on the dollar thus lowering cost and perhaps changing the marketability?  Im not voting for this, just asking if this is what the corporate types might be doing.

I'm not advocating for either but just wondering if that might be what is going on either one, or has someone seen an article explicitly saying that this is not going on?

Aside - I was watching the night before last a documentary from the BBC about the spitfire, on Netflix - I HIGHLY recommend it.  Anyway it was striking to see the old black and white footage of them churning out spitfires with all those rivets in a massive volume, and also that beautiful V12 Rolls Royce Merlin engine with 11,000 parts to fashion and then assemble.  They were churning these airplanes out faster than they could keep pilots (alive and healthy ...ugh..) to fly them.

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1 hour ago, NJMac said:

On the Mooney Facebook group they said 2 of the 4 delivered acclaim Ultras were in fatal accidents. If that's true, it would make one wonder if the correlation is there.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

Where und wann happened Second fatal Acclaim Ultra Accident-? At https://aviation-safety.net/  there is only one, that from 11.6.2019  Thanks. Just curious.

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The Mooney is a nice airplane on the used market . To build new ones at the price approaching 1000,000 dollars , there is a lot of competition with more utility, used or new. It is a very niche market and in most cases just an expensive toy. I wish them luck and hope they make it , I think it will be very tough, the economy has been very good and still no sales. I hope manufacturing isn’t headed overseas . 

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I don't think they're going to be building airplanes again unless they start doing so really soon.  The guys who built them aren't going to stick around now that they're out of work.  Without the human capital they're going to have trouble actually putting the airplane together.  I recall the stories about their last startup, when they had to recruit older workers to try and lean who to build the airplane.

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9 hours ago, kevinw said:

I’m glad I found the Ovation I purchased because I don’t think I would ever be happy with a Cirrus. Coming from a J with a UL of 900, I just wanted an airplane that could carry a load and feel lucky I found it.

 

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I'm living happily ever after and my (non pilot) wife is happy to take trips with me.  Do I miss my Screaming Eagle IO550.  Sometimes if I'm flying by myself.  The rest of the time, having TKS, Air Conditioning and still being able to carry over 1200 pounds is hard to argue with. 

And this makes sense...Its simple business and product evolution.  Mooney's and Bonanza's are like really nice cars from the 90's.  At the time they were great, but no one would spend $600K+ today for the airplane version of a 1990 BMW 525i. 

Do I still love flying Mooney's...Heck yes.  But in the same way as I love driving old Porsches or BMW's.  They are great cars but time required evolution.  Mooney's attempts at updates were too little, too late.

In comparison...

Cirrus keeps innovating and its key attributes, the parachute, gear down and welded, a big cabin, two doors etc..etc are there on all the planes.  And the new ones are just getting better.  If anyone wonders why Mooney is out of business, take a look at exhibit A below...My Cirrus.    

59042499_IMG_9541(1).thumb.jpg.edc7a2bbe75ab03ae665f4f826aa69f3.jpg

 

Edited by GeorgePerry
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3 minutes ago, GeorgePerry said:

I'm living happily ever after and my (non pilot) wife is happy to take trips with me.  Do I miss my Screaming Eagle IO550.  Sometimes if I'm flying by myself.  The rest of the time, having TKS, Air Conditioning and still being able to carry over 1200 pounds is hard to argue with.  

59042499_IMG_9541(1).thumb.jpg.edc7a2bbe75ab03ae665f4f826aa69f3.jpg

 

George, your rationalizing again...You should have just got an Aztek and kept 300K in your pocket, or maybe a Commanche 400 like Clarence. No fancy "shoot" to blow, however, but you wouldnt look like a dork with the wheels hanging down all the time :)

Oh wait...it has a 4 blade prop! Never mind...

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6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Perhaps their target market was not the USA but the rest of the world where we are all of normal size and build.  Why they then stopped marketting it to the rest of the world, ill never know.

Um NO , I have seen your "Size and Build" …….  Perhaps we inherited ours , from you guys back in the 1700s ??

 

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5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

George, your rationalizing again..but you wouldnt look like a dork with the wheels hanging down all the time :)

Oh wait...it has a 4 blade prop! Never mind...

I always look like a dork, regardless of where my wheels are hanging!  

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28 minutes ago, GeorgePerry said:

I'm living happily ever after and my (non pilot) wife is happy to take trips with me.  Do I miss my Screaming Eagle IO550.  Sometimes if I'm flying by myself.  The rest of the time, having TKS, Air Conditioning and still being able to carry over 1200 pounds is hard to argue with. 

And this makes sense...Its simple business and product evolution.  Mooney's and Bonanza's are like really nice cars from the 90's.  At the time they were great, but no one would spend $600K+ today for the airplane version of a 1990 BMW 525i. 

Do I still love flying Mooney's...Heck yes.  But in the same way as I love driving old Porsches or BMW's.  They are great cars but time required evolution.  Mooney's attempts at updates were too little, too late.

In comparison...

Cirrus keeps innovating and its key attributes, the parachute, gear down and welded, a big cabin, two doors etc..etc are there on all the planes.  And the new ones are just getting better.  If anyone wonders why Mooney is out of business, take a look at exhibit A below...My Cirrus.    

59042499_IMG_9541(1).thumb.jpg.edc7a2bbe75ab03ae665f4f826aa69f3.jpg

 

I agree MT four blade props are beautiful - smoother - save weight on the nose - better ground clearance - ...

Someone should put one on a Mooney.

TKS is nice too.  ...alas no AC and you defn beat my useful load on that slow plain white airplane of yours.

Ok - smack aside - a nice paint job is fun - why do you have a plain white plane?  (a plain plane).

 

blimp.jpg

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Mooney is what it is.  The Cirrus is great but the cost benefit for most budgets is not there at all. Mooney is an awesome used plane.

1.  What's the insurance costs 

2. How much are annuals

3.  whats the efficiency in MPG  or  MP$

4.  How much are subscription costs

5.  Chute repack costs

6.  How much is depreciation costing annually

7.  How much do you value modern comfort vs classic comfort

My guess is you could own a J, an old Porsche, an old Vette, and a newer BMW for a similar outlay of cash/overhead or some similar combination of assets compared to one SR22 Cirrus.  Cirrus is an awesome plane but it costs a lot to play at that level.  If you have $100,000 available for an asset purchase the options dwindle down pretty quick and Mooney's personal and economic value rises really really quick.

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Just now, aviatoreb said:

 

Ok - smack aside - a nice paint job is fun - why do you have a plain white plane?  (a plain plane).

 

 

I like all white...

14_Mooney Eagle_0010.jpg

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Just now, GeorgePerry said:

I like all white...

14_Mooney Eagle_0010.jpg

Apparently you do!  That must come from your Navy days looking sharp and proper in the ice cream man dress whites.  

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14 minutes ago, INA201 said:

Mooney is what it is.  The Cirrus is great but the cost benefit for most budgets is not there at all. Mooney is an awesome used plane.

1.  What's the insurance costs 

2. How much are annuals

3.  whats the efficiency in MPG  or  MP$

4.  How much are subscription costs

5.  Chute repack costs

6.  How much is depreciation costing annually

7.  How much do you value modern comfort vs classic comfort

My guess is you could own a J, an old Porsche, an old Vette, and a newer BMW for a similar outlay of cash/overhead or some similar combination of assets compared to one SR22 Cirrus.  Cirrus is an awesome plane but it costs a lot to play at that level.  If you have $100,000 available for an asset purchase the options dwindle down pretty quick and Mooney's personal and economic value rises really really quick.

All valid points...

Insurance is about the same.  1.0%-1.5% of hull value depending on quals / TT and Time in type

My last Annual was $4500.  Nose pucks needed to be replaced but all else was good.  So same basic charge for annual as a M20R

Subscription costs depend on what system you use.  If you have dual 430W, then costs are the same.  If you have G1000, then costs are the same

Chute repack required every 10 years.  Cost is about 15K or 1500 per year.  I look at this as cheap safety insurance.  If a motor quits at night or over inhospitable terrain, I'll take the chute, thank you!

Depreciation is an area where the Cirrus shines.  Depreciation is very low on the SR22 because demand is very high.  You can look at controller and compare the resale of a 2015 Cirrus and 2015 Mooney.  About 100K difference in favor of the Cirrus

Last question is subjective, but I'd say after flying with A/C and having and using TKS, newer is better!

Lastly, budget always is a factor.  And getting into a "good" Cirrus SR22 is a 200K and up proposition, so if a buyer only has 100K to spend they are out of luck or need to find a partner.  No arguments, budget matters.  But if we remove cost from the equation, the decision is a no-brainer. 

Edited by GeorgePerry
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On 11/10/2019 at 9:30 PM, EricJ said:

IMHO it shouldn't make any difference in your search, timeline, or plans, but that's just me.   It's pretty rare for J's to need parts from the factory, in my observation, anyway, and even if the factory were completely abandoned, somebody may come buy the assets for pennies on the dollar and sell parts and make airplanes again or whatever.    There are quite a few makes and models of airplanes out there that don't have factories any more, and factories/brands/etc., change hands with fair regularity.

IMHO ... 12 likes to your post are showing how much owners (including me) love their Mooneys, not that it is reasonable to ignore the factory shut-down. Mooney do need parts when damaged on ground / in the hangar / at an airshow. I have had my fair share of it. It is true so that just from flying you won't need parts. And not every part from the salvaging companies can be put back into service. Stocks did shrink, will continue to shrink, ... and I wish I had the solution.

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Well, the fact of the matter is, that in the current market it will be VERY difficult to sell any airplane without a shute.

Rationalizing or not, it is a very sad fact that with huge probability several of the Mooney friends we lost to engine failures recently, including the loss of the Ultra, would have been perfectly survivable. So SEP's without a shute will become a no go for most people who are looking to buy new and quite a few flying partners or wives will insist on it. Hell, even single jets get it these days. 

As much as I love my Mooney and as much as I like the performance of the current line (the Ovation in particular including the range), if I were in the new market or in the market for a comparable plane, I could not justify to my family NOT going for a BRS equipped plane. As much as nobody buys cars without airbags these days or safety belts for that matter. When I was small, nobody heard of children seats either (never had one myself). Times have changed in that regard. And I am afraid to say, Mooney missed the bus badly on this, not that they are the only ones though. 

The training market is different, that is why Piper and Cessna still can sell basic airframes as they are. Mooneys however are the Ferrari/Lamborghini class of GA and it that class, you can't really be second best in anything, least of all in the public's perception of safety. 

If I bought a plane for myself with a goal in mind such as a long range travel trip, such as some single travel, I would still look very favorably at my personal dream plane of the Ovation with LR tanks (and I would have to fly it alone too due to it's payload) but for family travel, family guys also rather buy a crash proof Volvo to a sports car. 

 

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