Factory Closed Down?

[Blue on Top]

So, back to having fun and dreaming ...

I HOPE that someday there will be energy densities greater than 100LL; the real-world technology is no where near at the moment.  In the meantime, though, we should be designing new airplanes that are electrically powered (hybrid until the power becomes available).  Electric motors have vast advantages over current IC engines in many, many ways.  In addition, the regulations will need to be "updated" for these new propulsion devices (motors), distribution systems and storage systems.  Failure modes are completely different than today.

PS. Electric airplanes are no more quiet or efficient than current airplanes.  Aerodynamics are, well, aerodynamics.  As our "father" once said, "They all fly through the same air." 

[tmo]

@Blue on Top - is adding the extra complexity and yet unknown failure modes of a hybrid drive really a good approach?  The engines are already running pretty much as efficiently as they will when powering a generator; the engine will not be any lighter, but the generator, battery and electrical engine, plus the additional required circuitry will weigh, likely lots.

I can maybe see it where the extra kick from the batteries plus the generator running at full power are used for takeoff and initial climb, but things slow down later in flight, but I'm still not convinced.

Do keep in mind that any of my drivel is not based on knowledge or science, just "methinks".  Don't get me wrong, I couldn't be more happy to be proven / explained wrong.

[Blue on Top]

7 hours ago, tmo said:

@Blue on Top - is adding the extra complexity and yet unknown failure modes of a hybrid drive really a good approach?

@tmo  In a single word, "No."

All of your logic is correct, and this solution would be less weight efficient as it would be significantly heavier and/or potentially more expensive, depending on what source is generating your electric power for propulsion.  Now I'll take us outside the box to look at other efficiencies.

When we get to the point we can carry enough stored energy to power the electric motor for 30 minutes, options open greatly.  Instead of a $$$ Lycoming or Continental engine, we can put in an LS3 crate engine for <10% of the cost.  If the LS3 quits (much less likely than a certificated aircraft engine), we have 30 minutes to get the airplane safely on the ground.  Cost efficiency becomes much, much greater.  Remember too that the first M20 had little more than half the horsepower of today's new airplanes (if the factory were open )

When we find a better energy storage/producer, our weight will decrease significantly, but the cost might go up significantly.  It all depends on what one wants to optimize.

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

So, back to having fun and dreaming ...

I HOPE that someday there will be energy densities greater than 100LL; the real-world technology is no where near at the moment.  In the meantime, though, we should be designing new airplanes that are electrically powered (hybrid until the power becomes available).  Electric motors have vast advantages over current IC engines in many, many ways.  In addition, the regulations will need to be "updated" for these new propulsion devices (motors), distribution systems and storage systems.  Failure modes are completely different than today.

PS. Electric airplanes are no more quiet or efficient than current airplanes.  Aerodynamics are, well, aerodynamics.  As our "father" once said, "They all fly through the same air." 

Right - new kinds of failure modes to plan for.

This reminds me of an electric RC car I had (we still have) with my son who was then 12.  It would go 50mph on a little lippo battery.  It was (is) a cracker jack little car.  But finicky.  The voltage regulator was over stressed and same the batteries and we kept having failures where either of those parts would burn out.  $50 bucks up in smoke (literally) over and over.

I like the idea of hybrid electric where an electric motor and gas powered engine drive to the same single prop shaft.  Gas for high power take off, or rather both motor and engine for take off.  Then gas motor drives alternator to charge battery to drive motor for lower power cruise.  But you have an electric motor and maybe 30 min of batteries in case gas engine dies.  Or you have gas motor in case something electric motor dies.  So twin safety in a single prop.  And an airplane of more weight can live with a smaller gas engine which tend to be more efficient than dragging around a bigger engine  for sake of 100% take off power.

[tmo]

17 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

Instead of a $$$ Lycoming or Continental engine, we can put in an LS3 crate engine for <10% of the cost.  If the LS3 quits (much less likely than a certificated aircraft engine), we have 30 minutes to get the airplane safely on the ground.

Great point that I totally missed.  Thank you.

[Blue on Top]

I know that this should be a different thread, but …  (okay, I'll do it right).  Look for a new thread entitled, "LS3 - It's not just for Corvettes." 

[carusoam]

Make it the LS7 with the supercharger thread... 

-a-

[Blue on Top]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Make it the LS7 with the supercharger thread... 

-a-

I added "LS7" to the search engine items.  

As @carusoam just pointed out, the BIGGEST hurdle that I see currently is defining a hard, non-changing configuration.  

[jkarch]

22 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

So, back to having fun and dreaming ...

I HOPE that someday there will be energy densities greater than 100LL; the real-world technology is no where near at the moment.  In the meantime, though, we should be designing new airplanes that are electrically powered (hybrid until the power becomes available).  Electric motors have vast advantages over current IC engines in many, many ways.  In addition, the regulations will need to be "updated" for these new propulsion devices (motors), distribution systems and storage systems.  Failure modes are completely different than today.

PS. Electric airplanes are no more quiet or efficient than current airplanes.  Aerodynamics are, well, aerodynamics.  As our "father" once said, "They all fly through the same air." 

electric airplanes are probably closer to turboprops in terms of smoothness and altitude performance except they can regenerate power on approach and be used for landing with that power saved. Trouble is energy densities but new formulations are on their way for batteries.

[carusoam]

Happy New Year JK!  

JK must be busy... so few posts.

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

16 hours ago, jkarch said:

electric airplanes are probably closer to turboprops in terms of smoothness and altitude performance except they can regenerate power on approach and be used for landing with that power saved. Trouble is energy densities but new formulations are on their way for batteries.

Hybrid systems make sense for cars where braking and deceleration energy can be captured and reused.   If a prop is causing deceleration or enough torque to drive a generator, it is also causing a lot of drag.   There aren't very many phases of flight where that is desirable, and usually not on approach.   Energy recapture just isn't very useful in an airplane, because we already know how to use altitude energy for descent and approach.

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

..and thats from a Brit, who can of course speak English,   

Well....lets not exaggerate that Mr.  Let's just say I could understand some of what you said and leave it at that.

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Eloquently put, and thats from a Brit, who can of course speak English,   

Sorry, dear sir, but I just can't let that statement lie unmolested.  

So my wife's first visit to Great Britain was after spending 2 days in Iceland.  We flew into Gatwick and drove north to my brother's house in Nottinghamshire.  

Once we got to the Midlands, we stopped at a Little Chef for lunch.  After ordering, she leaned over to me and said, "I think they spoke better English in Iceland."

True story.  

 

[Aerodon]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

Hybrid systems make sense for cars where braking and deceleration energy can be captured and reused.   If a prop is causing deceleration or enough torque to drive a generator, it is also causing a lot of drag.   There aren't very many phases of flight where that is desirable, and usually not on approach.   Energy recapture just isn't very useful in an airplane, because we already know how to use altitude energy for descent and approach.

Getting a little off topic, but sometimes in my electric car I can get up to 25% regeneration.  Services only required every 2 years, and I would not be surprised if the brake pads last 50 or 75k miles.

Turbo props and jets get a lot of the energy spent climbing back on the way down.  Single engines, not so much.

Aerodon

 

[PT20J]

11 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Getting a little off topic,

In this thread...Impossible! 

[bradp]

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Eloquently put, and thats from a Brit, who can of course speak English,   

 

 

[Blue on Top]

1 hour ago, Aerodon said:

Getting a little off topic, but sometimes in my electric car I can get up to 25% regeneration.  Services only required every 2 years, and I would not be surprised if the brake pads last 50 or 75k miles.

Turbo props and jets get a lot of the energy spent climbing back on the way down.  Single engines, not so much.

Aerodon

@Aerodon  Thanks for the data, but …         … ummmmmmmm … 25% of what?  Similar to the internet, you can't believe everything that's displayed on your dash.

(We had a rental car once with this displayed).  The best I could figure out is that the car took the value of kinetic energy at the time brakes were applied (proportional to V^2) and then compared it to how much of that value was returned to the batteries.  Locking up the brakes or not touching the brakes would give you a value of 0% (i.e. friction of the brakes or friction of the wheels and drag of the vehicle robbed the other portion of KE.  The brake pads are there only if you need a deceleration greater than that which can be provided by removing electrical energy.

All airplanes get the potential energy from losing altitude.  Drag steals some of that energy, independent of propulsion device.  If one wants to regen via a windmilling propeller on the way down, they can.  Expect the glide ratio to go to zero, though, as a windmilling propeller creates a lot of drag..

[RobertGary1]

On 1/16/2020 at 1:09 PM, EricJ said:

Hybrid systems make sense for cars where braking and deceleration energy can be captured and reused.   If a prop is causing deceleration or enough torque to drive a generator, it is also causing a lot of drag.   There aren't very many phases of flight where that is desirable, and usually not on approach.   Energy recapture just isn't very useful in an airplane, because we already know how to use altitude energy for descent and approach.

Hybrids get good mileage jn stop and go Situations  but no advantage on the highway.  Similar I don’t see a phase of flight where you could save much fuel in an airplane but shutting off the gas engine. Maybe in descent but we’re not burning much fuel there anyway. Then add jn the weight of batteries and electric motors. 
-Robert 

[chinoguym20]

Some positive developments at the factory this week. Several cars in the parking lot and several employees have been recalled. No aircraft production or service going on, but working on something. Let’s hope there is a plan to do something profitable and create jobs for the Kerrville community. 

[carusoam]

It would be amazing if this is a finance win!
 

Stage 1 complete... the initial trade agreement between the US and China was signed only a few days ago...

Stage 2a comes next...

Best regards,

-a-

[chinoguym20]

Yes it would.

Let’s all keep our fingers crossed for some indication of a plan soon. If anyone who has influence at the factory, or with the ownership is listening? Please issue a press release or put something up on a post. Not knowing the full scenario causes frustration and rumor. Now is the time to do something to at least temper it if not control it for Mooney’s benefit.

I do know a handful of people have been in the factory  this week so something is happening there. I hope it’s in preparation for someone new to come in and not to wind it down and tie up loose ends. 

[kortopates]

I can say the factory is shipping parts that they have in stock. Which I am very thankful for!!


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[chinoguym20]

Just heard from a friend that he received a pink slip from Mooney HR along with everyone else he knew of who had not been recalled last week. He thinks there are about 10 people left in the factory. More to follow.

This sucks and it’s not the way a business should treat there employees and customers by not being upfront with them.
 

if anyone is listening. Can you issue a

press release or something?

[chinoguym20]

Just a little update. I spoke to a credible source yesterday and the factory is still closed down with regard to manufacturing parts, aircraft and servicing aircraft but there are a dozen or so staff in there who are selling anything on the shelf. The Chinese ownership is not onsite and is trying to sell the business and save face for this tremendous loss of their investment in Kerrville TX Chino CA and the massive campus in China (which has a simulated M20 assembly line). They didn’t say what’s next but think there are some people interested in acquiring the ability to make and sell parts. The big problem is that Mooney wasn’t able to make a profit doing that either so hopefully there is a bigger plan.  They don’t think there will be any more M20s being produced.

will update if I hear more 

THANKYOU MSers   

 

[mike_elliott]

Hi Chinoguym20, You speak rather authoritatively, Do you mind identifying yourself so that you and your  statements can be vetted? It will help put some substance behind your words.  I also have heard something  different (also from "credible source") , but will refrain from saying as it is hearsay for now and will wait until it is factually announced.

Once we know facts, we can cry or rejoice, and if you have them, please feel free to share.