Factory Closed Down?

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Which worries me in that the lights could be turned off and she could simply walk away without feeling a need to mess around with selling anything to someone that might find value in what's left. There's likely been more than 200 MM poured down the Mooney hole with little to show for it thus far, and I can't imagine the scraps are with more than a few percent of that today.
 

I think that's the real risk, that it just gets put in a closet and collects dust for the foreseeable future.   Lots of TCDSs have met that fate.

[KSMooniac]

I was informed early on (just as the Chinese acquisition came to light), that the Chinese speculate for long term.  Therefore a long term plan was in store for the Mooney acquisition.
As we hear that there are potential buyers for Mooney, the above information is contradictory in nature.
It is confusing indeed. Time will tell . 
 

There certainly was a long term plan, but I think it was contingent on success with the first step... Getting the M10 into the market and a production line (or 2) established. That was a great plan IMO but terrible execution, and it killed any chance of the long term play developing. Most smart folks only need to touch the stove once. Only dumb airplane nuts keep going back for more!

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[GeeBee]

Here is one fact. We don't know the financial structure of Mooney. Anything beyond that is speculation. 

[steingar]

The other thing I've heard is that originally they thought they'd be importing Mooneys into China, but that the Chinese government put the kibosh on it.  Could have affected their calculations to some degree.

The Chinese government might plan long term, but I bet their businesses don't plan any different than ours.  Money is money.

[kortopates]

The other thing I've heard is that originally they thought they'd be importing Mooneys into China, but that the Chinese government put the kibosh on it.  Could have affected their calculations to some degree.
The Chinese government might plan long term, but I bet their businesses don't plan any different than ours.  Money is money.

Not at all true - the Chinese government didn't put the kibosh on anything. They have been entirely supportive with building local airport infrastructure for Soaring. Their FAA equivalent is as slow as ours - but not unsupportive. It took some time but Soaring now has several Mooneys registered in China.

As@KSMooniac said, their long term plan was dependent on introducing a US Mooney branded trainer to the Chinese people. Can't build on nothing.


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[aviatoreb]

Just now, kortopates said:

Not at all true - the Chinese government didn't put the kibosh on anything. They have been entirely supportive with building local airport infrastructure for Soaring. Their FAA equivalent is as slow as ours - but not unsupportive. It took some time but Soaring now has several Mooneys registered in China.

As@KSMooniac said, their long term plan was dependent on introducing a US Mooney branded trainer to the Chinese people. Can't build on nothing.


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Could the change and decreased cooperation between US and Chineese governments regarding trade and tariffs have expedited this down turn for Mooney owned by the Chineese if they had hoped to build in the US and import airplanes to China?

[MooneyMitch]

4 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Not at all true - the Chinese government didn't put the kibosh on anything. They have been entirely supportive with building local airport infrastructure for Soaring. Their FAA equivalent is as slow as ours - but not unsupportive. It took some time but Soaring now has several Mooneys registered in China.

As@KSMooniac said, their long term plan was dependent on introducing a US Mooney branded trainer to the Chinese people. Can't build on nothing.


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And now Soaring also has no Mooney warranty support for the planes in China?  

All so very interesting!!!

[KSMooniac]

Could the change and decreased cooperation between US and Chineese governments regarding trade and tariffs have expedited this down turn for Mooney owned by the Chineese if they had hoped to build in the US and import airplanes to China?

I wouldn't guess that has anything to do with the current situation. If the M10 were done well, I'm sure the owner would be happy producing and selling them in the US until relations improve at some point. There were plans to set up a factory over there to service that market too, so that would eliminate any export/import difficulties for the most part.

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[GeeBee]

The Chinese aviation market was hot as a fire cracker. Chinese companies were hiring ex-pat pilots and aircraft sales were robust even in a place where flying above 3000' privately was difficult. Now they have a surplus of pilots, they are furloughing pilots and their entire economy is not that great add the 737 Max grounding and the aviation scene is bleak. Make no mistake about it, the current trade war is having a deleterious effect upon the Chinese economy and the thinking of Chinese investors. A historical look at the Shanghai index proves that. This morning they are celebrating because it is above 3000 when it was above 5000 in 2015. Make no mistake about it they have been hurt and are hurting. I am sure there is a lot of soul searching going on right now about throwing in more money. Equally so, where to place that money. Do you stay in the US where things are at their peak or go home to a down market with a large upside potential?

There are so many things here at play we cannot know. Is the state owned Aviation Industries Group squeezing the Mooney investors? Who knows because it is all ChiCom politics. We cannot possibly know either the structures or the intrigue. It will all have to play out before our eyes and ears.

I only know two things about Chinese investing. Do not trust their numbers because there is no verification by independent authorities and stay far, far away because it is most the time, smoke and mirrors.

 

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

There certainly was a long term plan, but I think it was contingent on success with the first step... Getting the M10 into the market and a production line (or 2) established. That was a great plan IMO but terrible execution, and it killed any chance of the long term play developing. Most smart folks only need to touch the stove once. Only dumb airplane nuts keep going back for more!

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So when are we going to have a $200K new J?

 

[KSMooniac]

So when are we going to have a $200K new J?
 

You can buy my used one for 200k!

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[steingar]

I just can't imagine anyone loaning anyone money for a money-loosing proposition like Mooney.  The only way I can see a company loose more money is to try and develop and manufacture a clean sheet design.  Mooney has intellectual property that is worth something.  It does make sense if the Chinese wanted to leverage American technology to start some sort of GA activity in China. I still think it a pity that they didn't just buy the type certificate of the Mooney cadet and put a Rotax on it.

Whoever is running Mooney, I am embarrassed to be associated in any way with the brand.  The way they've treated their employees is a disgrace.  The only good thing is I doubt anyone worth anything will return.  i wouldn't.

Edited January 13, 2020 by steingar

[GeeBee]

As I previously said, my employer entered bankruptcy. We had some of the worst management in the industry. The management gave themselves bankruptcy proof pensions while we all got wiped out. I know about being treated poorly and working for a bunch of dilitants. That all said, as one of the best VP of Ops I ever worked for wrote:

"You ride for the brand. The brand is not the owners, the brand is your bunk mates and fellow cowboys. You never leave your cows, you never let down the bunk house. Good fortune will return to those who ride for the brand"

It was so true. 10 years later, I had recovered what I lost in pension, with money in my own account, we had great management who treated us fairly, rewarded us handsomely, not just record profits, but the best in the industry ever. We became  feared by our competitors, loved by our customers and rode proud in the saddle, all the way to retirement. 

 

 

[kortopates]

And now Soaring also has no Mooney warranty support for the planes in China?  
All so very interesting!!!

Soaring has a team of over 6 mechanics to maintain their relatively small fleet of Mooney Acclaims and Ovations. There not at all lacking for support when it comes to personnel. They also have a pretty good spare parts inventory but they can't stock everything and are also dependent on Kerrvile for Mooney airframe parts.


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[MooneyMitch]

8 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Soaring has a team of over 6 mechanics to maintain their relatively small fleet of Mooney Acclaims and Ovations. There not at all lacking for support when it comes to personnel. They also have a pretty good spare parts inventory but they can't stock everything and are also dependent on Kerrvile for Mooney airframe parts.


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Yep, that's what I was wondering...................Mooney specific airframe parts.  Odds are nothing would be needed, but......................

This is just a crappy situation overall.

[Ron McBride]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Soaring has a team of over 6 mechanics to maintain their relatively small fleet of Mooney Acclaims and Ovations. There not at all lacking for support when it comes to personnel. They also have a pretty good spare parts inventory but they can't stock everything and are also dependent on Kerrvile for Mooney airframe parts.


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Paul. Who were the passengers that flew with you in China?  Potential buyers, air taxi etc?

Thx. Ron 

[kortopates]

[mention=7337]Ron McBride[/mention]

Mostly all instructional flights with the occasional VIP demo flight either as a sales demo or a government official. Although Soaring scheduled us to fly with our visiting US Ambassador to China, Max Baucus, I just new he couldn’t accept a ride. We did a fly by that day instead. But I still got to meet him and get photographed with him and Veronica (owner of the Meijing Group) which was one of my favorite memories.

 

WRT to Chinese officials, they weren’t too keen on accepting rides either, but what they all wanted to do was go out to dinner after the meeting and take turns toasting drinks to each and everyone. Fond memories there too!

 

 

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[carusoam]

Veronica must be an amazing person to work with. 

 

So if anyone is keeping score... She is...

1) Running a high tech, Worldwide, aviation company... check.

2) Using capitalism in China... check.

3) Meeting promises of building Mooneys in Kerrville, not taking everything to China... check.

4) Have you seen any other Women doing this while still in China?

5) So if anyone is going to get the lights back on in Kerrville...

it will probably start from the top.

6) Veronica has been a great leader.

7) The Ultras are spectacular next generation versions of the beloved O and Acclaim. Plenty of room for improvement and next gen ideas... seems this work is never done...

8) When you talk to new owners about their Mooneys... (I only spoke with one...) I must not be very outgoing... 

It is a traveling machine that enables people to go where they want, when they want, many states away...

that was a business owner... buying another business machine... He was so happy with his decision, the enjoyment was infectious...

9) His plane was on display... 

10) Don’t forget the team... A leader is only as good as their team...  if you’re the leader... put in the extra effort to select a good team...

Part of that team is the Transition Trainers, a few were at KOSH too... I got to spend some time with some awesome MSers on that part of the team as well... Mike and Dan got to listen to me asking lots of questions...  

11) then there is this part...   Making private aviation available in China... the place that doesn’t have enough GA airports... private aviation in a communist country...?  Somebody believes that This is possible...

Imagine for a moment... the freer flow of ideas, AND people... that has worked pretty well for humanity in other places...

PP thoughts from the outside only, not a Mooney sales guy, yet...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Blue on Top]

12 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

So when are we going to have a $200K new J?

… and that was the original, mis-informed plan from day one for the M10J.

We can do better … much, much better.  -Ron

[pkofman]

Im a Mooney believer , Ive owned 4 of them over the years. I listen endlessly to other non mooney   pilots tell me all the problems with mooney's , Stuff like hard to land, too small etc etc etc.. To me its a wonderful safe  airplane with a unique brand , created by unique people. I know the history. It has not always been easy for the company and those that work for it,

but....

This forum is testament to the loyalty of its fans, pilots, purchasers, and those that support the product

So I am just generally interested and shocked to see that some high end aviation or related or ( maybe other ) entity  step up to create a " brand within a brand."

There is allot of "brand making" that has been done over 50+ years, a strong fleet requiring support , and die hard Mooney people will to support the next step

My fear is that the current ownership will have too much ego in the game to  sort out the situation for the greater good ( or money). when things move from just plain business to other motivations 

Still hoping for the best

Peter

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

Wouldn’t we love a Paul Allen, a Jeff Bezos, a Richard Branson, or an Elon Musk..... or the like to procure Mooney, just because?  

Imagine the possibilities??  I think those possibilities are as imaginative as lifting your own sports car into outer space! 

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Wouldn’t we love a Paul Allen, a Jeff Bezos, a Richard Branson, or an Elon Musk..... or the like to procure Mooney, just because?  

Imagine the possibilities??  I think those possibilities are as imaginative as lifting your own sports car into outer space! 

It would be fun to lift my sports car into outer space.  But I would want it back by Monday.

Actually for the price of lifting my sports car to outer space - Elon could purchase a new Mooney for everyone on Mooney space no charge!

[MooneyMitch]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

It would be fun to lift my sports car into outer space.  But I would want it back by Monday.

Actually for the price of lifting my sports car to outer space - Elon could purchase a new Mooney for everyone on Mooney space no charge!

Well, there ya go!  A new Ultra for each of us should put the factory folks back at work!  Go Mooney!!!

[mike_elliott]

It would be fun to lift my sports car into outer space.  But I would want it back by Monday.
Actually for the price of lifting my sports car to outer space - Elon could purchase a new Mooney for everyone on Mooney space no charge!

As an Elon fanboy, as soon as he gets his big bonus coming from the market cap when TSLA is 500/share, convincing him to invest to create a sustainable electric aircraft might not be so difficult. After all, air cooled internal combustion engines are the work of the devil.
He has a big payday coming, as Tesla is now larger than Ford and GM combined by market cap, third to VW and Toyota and gaining rapidly.

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[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Wouldn’t we love a Paul Allen, a Jeff Bezos, a Richard Branson, or an Elon Musk..... or the like to procure Mooney, just because?  

Imagine the possibilities??  I think those possibilities are as imaginative as lifting your own sports car into outer space! 

Hopefully not Paul Allen     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Allen

Mooney is already in enough trouble, having a dead owner won't make things better.