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Factory Closed Down?


chinoguym20

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Having worked 27 years at a company that declared Chapter 11 it can either be a great process, or it can be a path to the SOS. My company came out of Chapter 11, promptly revamped its product and it methods. Today, it is the leader in the world, the most profitable in the history of its industry, both feared and loathed by its competitors. I retired after 40 years with them and while my pension was handed over to the PBGC, I also made a good amount of money in the latter years thanks to profit sharing. With good management, bankruptcy can often be clarifying and solve a lot of structural defects built up over the years. In GA one of the best parts is to end the lawsuits and payouts. If Mooney declares Chapter 11 I hope they use the process wisely, not just to scrub their balance sheet, but to revamp the entire company.

 

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9 hours ago, kortopates said:

But I also understand the point about the spouse as a stake-holder partner wanting to have their requirements taken seriously, and that may include a parachute because of the perceived safety enhancements.  Don't argue with their needs but embrace them and above all keep it fun for them. 

Exactly what I was trying to say put more eloquently, thanks for that.

I know that there are quite a few ladies flying Mooneys, such as Jolie and Pia, but they are  hardly the marketing reference for any airplane. And while initiatives such as Jolie and Jan's seminars are helping a great deal, in the big picture things look very different today than they did 30-40 years ago, when the decisions about what to buy in terms of cars and airplanes was left to the then head of the family. Stepford is long gone and we are much better of for it too.

You do describe the situation I keep seeing very well. Most of the time spouses at very best accept their significant others flying passion as a necessery evil, not as something they enjoy. Often enough, we pilots do not pay enough attention to this and still believe, being a pilot or owner, albeit of a small airplane, is something which is attractive to them. Even the car market has seen this development. Sports cars and roadsters are rather low in demand these days but SUV's are booming as family cars. Perceived safety is quite an issue.

The scenario I keep seeing is that the reaction of most wifes to a husbands ambition to buy a plane (most of the time in their 50ties or so having finally gotten around to get that license) is rather "if you must" then "oh great." And if you must, it better be one which is the safest around and for people who know aviation only from the outside and are wary up to scared of it, a parashute is the very synonym of safety.

So yes, while there still are people who don't have to aks their spouses consent to buy planes, their number is going south fast. And those who do get the permission to do so are well advised to heed their wifes concerns rather than poh-poh them. Driving that Porsche with a terrified woman sitting to your right is also not much fun.

No, it is probably not the only reason that the M20 was never really competitive anymore after Cirrus came out but it is the reason Cirrus outsells everyone else. Piper, Beech and Cessna all have larger airplanes to cross finance their SEP's and flight schools behind them too, which go the old fashioned way rather trying new. Also that is something which will change eventually. Those who are ready then with products the market need will still be around, others won't.

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1 hour ago, ryoder said:

Cessna has it right. They have flight schools on lockdown like Apple computers did in public schools in the eighties.  Everybody wanted one at home as they used them at school.  
 

No flight school is buying a 800k Mooney.

Those tides have been changing a bit.  Piper now sells more trainers than Cessna and there are some other players, including Cirrus with the SR20.

Cessna has really messed the pilot training boom up...they should be selling 200 Skyhawks or more per year.  It's by far the best trainer for dispatch reliability and longevity.

Someone should buy the type certificate from them...

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7 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Sorry Jetdriven, but their marketting is appalling.  They only market to pilots for gods sake, who in their right minds markets to a shrinking market,   no one is the answer, you make the market bigger. Ie sell cars to students, and take a bigger share of THAT market.

I agree. I remember one of the first years they were back at SNF earlier this decade I was ready, cash and hand, to buy them out of any and all gear they may have had on site. That cost me $0 because they didn’t even bring anything to sell. They had an Acclaim mockup and a tent with a TV (That only displayed the Mooney logo) and a couch. I ungracefully let the ONLY person working the booth my displeasure at the absolute lack of swag to which she begrudgingly offered me a free hat that they were giving out to prospective customers.  Meanwhile Piper, Cirrus, and the Textron companies had racks and racks of everything imaginable to buy.  It’s stupid stuff like that that drives away prospective buyers/upgraders. Plus it’s literally getting paid to get the name out there. People stop me all the time about that hat (still) and I take the opportunity to talk the planes up. Imagine if there was a contingent of people wearing branded shirts, hats, bags, etc. 
 

Their ads are also crap. We understand that it’s a fast plane, that’s one of the reasons why we buy them. I have yet to see one that gives any other benefits of the line besides that. 
 

I’d do their marketing for free and would probably quadruple the units moved with a basic print and social media campaign that was halfway competent. 

Edited by Mike A
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I’m glad I brought up social media. Another thing that Mooney needs to do is drop only having dealers promote and demo the planes.  Both Cirrus and Textron have field sales managers that are very active on social media. They do demo flights and travel around the country showing the planes off. While they are flying they post videos of various features of the planes and some of the cool things that GA allows them to do.  It’s a huge boost to the brand awareness and Cirrus has even managed to get me interested in what they can offer. I know what they are showing isn’t really different than what a Mooney can do, but the exposure does wonder for their brands. 

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Edited by Mike A
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I’m glad I brought up social media. Another thing that Mooney needs to do is drop only having dealers promote and demo the planes.  Both Cirrus and Textron have field sales managers that are very active on social media. They do demo flights and travel around the country showing the planes off. While they are flying they post videos of various features of the planes and some of the cool things that GA allows them to do.  It’s a huge boost to the brand awareness and Cirrus has even managed to get me interested in what they can offer. I know what they are showing isn’t really different than what a Mooney can do, but the exposure does wonder for their brands. 
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Yep. And both those brands have gotten free product placement starring in many YouTube videos I've watched. Steveo in FL seems to be the best at getting the reps to let him fly their demos. Cirrus many times with their FL rep and Mindy with textron.

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Back on task.
A notice was issued last night that the company will remain closed and all employees are not to return on monday 18  
 
 
At first they furloughed roughly 2/3 of their staff. This quote says all. Is all meaning 3/3 or just the same 2/3?

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13 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Those tides have been changing a bit.  Piper now sells more trainers than Cessna and there are some other players, including Cirrus with the SR20.

Cessna has really messed the pilot training boom up...they should be selling 200 Skyhawks or more per year.  It's by far the best trainer for dispatch reliability and longevity.

Someone should buy the type certificate from them...

My 162 has excellent dispatch reliability because it is so simple and it is maintained by @salty

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On Friday November 8 they furloughed everyone (not a sole to remain. I think there were only around 60 employees left anyway as there was also a large lay-off back in August that was not publicized).  On Friday November 15 they issued a notice that the furlough will continue and do not return to the factory as you will be turned away by security. MElliot May know more?

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2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Regardless of whether they laid off 200+ employees in August or November 7, and/or laid off the remaining 60-90 this week, they failed to make the WARN notices required in Texas for a single plant layoff greater than 50.  As a result the employees are entitled to another 60 days severance pay.  Things seem especially chaotic and amateurish at Mooney right now which is generally an indication of a lack of leadership.

https://twc.texas.gov/businesses/worker-adjustment-and-retraining-notification-warn-notices

 

I read through the WARN links and it seems like the company has wiggle room on the notices under several points: 1) Faltering company provision,  2) Layoff's of 6 months or less, and 3) Unforeseeable business circumstances (this one may be a little stretch).  In either case, if the circumstances change to make it a permanent, the company can give notice at that time.  I am no lawyer and don't know how strictly the courts have ruled in the past, but that is the way I read it.

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On 11/16/2019 at 7:21 PM, kortopates said:

Although the wife's input is a critical part of the solution, in my experience as an instructor and having met many wives the sad thing is the majority lost interest early on. But it's not the plane that turns off the spouse but their pilot husband's flying. Pushing them on long flights to "save time" such that the experience becomes uncomfortable and no longer fun, flying in significant turbulence which is way beyond their comfort level, and giving your spouse the impression that you may have a stronger case of get-there-its rather than their safety and enjoyment as your #1 priority. Especially early on, a pilot has to limit their choice of flying conditions and durations to keep it fun and enjoyable for the inexperienced non-pilot spouse or pretty soon the spouse won't be going. I am not convinced the the cockpit amenities have much to do with it till you've at least kept them interested enough to graduate to long distance flying. 

But I also understand the point about the spouse as a stake-holder partner wanting to have their requirements taken seriously, and that may include a parachute because of the perceived safety enhancements.  Don't argue with their needs but embrace them and above all keep it fun for them. You may get real lucky as I did and watch your partner become an instrument rated pilot that is as enthusiastic about traveling in the plane as you are with the big win-win: two pilots up front can be much safer than one!

Thank you for the great suggestions, I will definitely implement them.

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How is it that Tecnam the Italian aircraft manufacturer with 250 employees is building and selling 200 plus airplanes per year?  Are the Italians that much better at business than Chinese Texans?

Clarence

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If nothing else, this thread reflects the fact that many aircraft owners are rather realistic about the viability and desirability of light GA aircraft.

Discussions about spouse reluctance, turbulence, time savings, uncomfortable conditions, weather, icing, safety, parachutes, and cost are among the subjects discussed here. I'll agree with all of it, because it's all true. Half a century ago, we thought good things were on the horizon, new and ever more capable models were coming out on a regular basis. What actually happened is that we've been stuck with the same old thing for so long, there is no excitement anymore and the limitations are self evident. 

It's time that GA gets an injection of something so new, different and capable, it becomes the "must have" product of the next generation. Sadly, I don't see it happening. Nor do I see electric drive as being useful in any way.  

In the end, unless you are flying a toy plane such as a Cub for fun, or training for an airline job, a large aspect of aviation is about speed and getting there fast. To that end, the faster Mooney aircraft are among the most useful in the entire fleet of singles. 

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1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

How is it that Tecnam the Italian aircraft manufacturer with 250 employees is building and selling 200 plus airplanes per year?  Are the Italians that much better at business than Chinese Texans?

Clarence

 

Apparently they are!  That Italian company is kicking butt.

They sold a BUNCH of their twins to Cape Air that is replacing their legacy fleet of Cessna 402's with them. (Remember the old tv show wings?  That was Cape Air actually and that very airplane in wings is still in their fleet with a sticker on the plane that points out that fact and I have flown in that airplane).  Cape air goes through an engine TBO in under 3 years.  Even though once they get past TBO they are awarded a TBO extension a couple hundred hours at a time to get to 2600 hrs when they retire the engines.  How do I know - the mechanics who work on my airplane are some of the same guys that work locally for cape in Massena nearby.  There aren't a lot of mechanics up here in Boonies-upstatevill-NY.

So it is with great interest a few years ago when I noticed that Cape is buying a bunch of Italian airplanes.  I haven't ridden in one yet.

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On 11/18/2019 at 6:27 AM, chinoguym20 said:

On Friday November 8 they furloughed everyone (not a sole to remain. I think there were only around 60 employees left anyway as there was also a large lay-off back in August that was not publicized).  On Friday November 15 they issued a notice that the furlough will continue and do not return to the factory as you will be turned away by security. MElliot May know more?

Sounds like they did not furlough the security guards so soles do remain.     It's a weird accuracy thing, I can't turn it off.  

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2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

How is it that Tecnam the Italian aircraft manufacturer with 250 employees is building and selling 200 plus airplanes per year?

As far as selling goes, trainers.  Primary (P208) and MEP.  I don't think the rest really matters, but they have a nice looking 4 place high wing plane with three doors, the P2010.

As far as building - keep in mind they are also designing, redesigning and expanding their line.

Oh, and, for the most part, they don't rely on Lycoming / Continental, even their twin is Rotax powered.  Only the 4 place single has a Lycoming, 360 or 390, and I believe that also can run on mogas.

You can tell the planes are Italian, but nothing important seems to break too often.  Our club P208 flies 600h/year without breaking a sweat.

Definitely go for a ride in one, if you can.

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 12:11 PM, jetdriven said:

I didn’t mention parachute in this discussion.  But the vast majority of buyers bought that plane instead of this. And it’s not marketing of an inferior product and it’s not that they are stupid and like to flash the wingtip lights From 20’’ away.  Mooney is closed down now and it’s beucase they didn’t sell enough product into a market that clearly was big enough. Let’s discuss why. 

Ok let's...

In my view, the lions share of the market is certainly with the Cirrus...folks love the notion of the parachute in a single engine platform. Imagine the extra sense of well-being while traveling at night, or over crummy topography and forests. It's the next best thing to a second engine in certain conditions. Those are things that nag me while wondering where I would go if the fan motor quit. Also, the gear is down and welded on a cirrus and surely that must help with insurance cost. But, like driving a jeep is for girls ( this should piss someone off), most accomplished pilots might appreciate the retract gear, the complexity and the sporty, masculine, if not down right sexy looks of the Mooney. While the Cirrus looks ok, I'm not getting that wow when I see one. Sheeple do go where sheeple go and translates to sales momentum. I still don't have a clue how some can justify the $800,000 plus for either brand...That's getting close to turbine territory.

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Should I comment, no I shouldn't.  Ok, I won't speculate.  Ok I will.  Eight planes in a year and Lasar is the only one saying the closure is temporary.  No employees talking or anyone around here knowing anything makes no sense.  All I know is you are losing serious $ and that is not sustainable.  

Hypothetically, could 200 MSers take a year off without pay and turn this thing around? Who would we elect as CEO?

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I’m ready to go...

I’ll take every MS suggestion and put it to work immediately...

 A year on the road behind the yoke of an Acclaim, visiting every MSer airport on GSXer’s map...

Eating at every restaurant ever mentioned... on MS

Constant video updates along the way... posted on MS

You will all notice the improvement in my use of the centerline over the year... :)

Better get some decent TT to go with that... top off the precision landing training with DK... :)

Starting with that new marketing campaign... Andrew did a great job on that... so far...

Posting pics from my favorite locations you guys visited this year alone...

The deep woods camping in Canada... the islands in the Caribbean... skiing in the mountains... football in Alabama... the Jersey shore... on my way to Europe...  :)

gonna need to get a Mooney mountain flying check out...

Spend a few days putting that fancy wax on...

Probably too big a job for one ordinary PP... 

Fortunately, with MS... I come with a whole community...   :)

Gotta start one of those fancy MS PP presentations...  no not that MS and PP... Microsoft PowerPoint... :)

My favorite job was selling Million dollar machines... getting to know each Customer is a blast!  My second favorite job was buying Million dollar machines... getting to know each supplier was much easier...

Having each customer get to know the machine is even better... the relationships can last a life time...

I’ll have two PP presentations with me...

  1. flying the Mooney... awesome things people do with Mooneys...
  2. Mooney hardware and technology...   (the one every wants to know you have, and doesn’t want to take the time to actually sit through it... it’s a hand-out...)  :)

 

I’ll volunteer for the VP of sales gig...  :)


Ina, is that what you had in mind?
 

PP thoughts and dreams, not a plane sales guy, yet...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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