Factory Closed Down?

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, Hector said:

I think we are all hoping that at a minimum Mooney can remain open with a skeleton crew selling spare parts as they have done in the past. My fear, if the Chinese investors can’t find a new buyer and they don’t want to remain open to sell spare parts, they will liquidate the Mooney factory selling off all the tooling, equipment, etc. Needless to say, if that happens then it will Truly be the end of Mooney.


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I can’t imagine a liquidation as you describe would be the highest and best use of the assets vs continuing to manufacture and sell parts where it would seem there is good money to be made. 

[carusoam]

There hasn’t been an end yet...

Some pretty crummy times... sure.

Survived the Great Recession and bloomed to real business again... Sort of...

The economy is still strong...

100LL is still available...

No lofty projects like the turbine going on...

Just business as usual...

I sense the unusual opportunity for somebody... in finance...

The global economy always has dips in it... and... 

It always recovers...

Buy the dip!

PP thoughts only, not a finance guy... I wasn’t on the list, but I ate their awesome lunch and talked to a few factory people while I was there... and a bunch of MSers too...

Best regards,

-a-

[Steve B]

I think Piper should buy it. At this point, Mooney’s product line is two, fairly high performance, models. They slot right in between the piston piper line and the piper turbo-props. As much as I’d love a TBM, the Piper family of turboprops are in a more realistic neighborhood in fantasy land.


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[HRM]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I sense the unusual opportunity for somebody...

I am not a businessman or financier, but I don't understand why they don't just keep the parts activity going and forget about building new airplanes for a while.

I am guessing there is not enough business even in that space.

<sigh>

[Mark89114]

13 minutes ago, HRM said:

I am not a businessman or financier, but I don't understand why they don't just keep the parts activity going and forget about building new airplanes for a while.

I am guessing there is not enough business even in that space.

<sigh>

I also thought they were doing contract work of some kind.   My guess is the 8 certified planes they sold cost them milions in overhead.  As much as i hate to say it, might be time to put the old bird to rest and focus on other activities.

[Hector]

If the current Chinese investors have thrown in the towel and are now just contemplating how to recoup/salvage whatever they can from their initial investments then it may be really bad (liquidation). Hopefully, as many of you have expressed, there is money to be made in parts sufficient to keep a much smaller Mooney in business.


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[aviatoreb]

What is really a downer here, well besides the factory is closed again, is that this has happened not in a moment of a general economic downturn.  To the contrary it is happening when the economy is absolutely booming.

[Steve B]

Pure speculation: I would guess there is a modest business in supporting the old fleet. The challenge will be the scale of what that is realistically worth vs what the Chinese investors will bother with and what they invested.

I would guess that if people with expertise - you know the names from your MAPA ads - Air-Mods, Dugosh, LASAR, Maxwell, Cole - got together - there is a price that they could pay that would have a positive return if run as fleet support.

Question is if the Chinese owner will bother with the sale process (lawyers etc) for that price. (And, obviously, if buyers like that would want the complexity of expanding in that way).

At some price, all the existing owners would probably kick in to form a coop.



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[gsxrpilot]

I don't believe the Chinese (Veronica) bought Mooney as an investment and also doesn't care about the money spent so far. It's a rounding error in her portfolio. Unfortunately that would mean she doesn't care about it being closed. And probably isn't super motivated to sell or find a buyer. 

We'll have to wait and see what happens. I'm thankful for the run we've had though.

[RLCarter]

My gut says they are done and unless another manufacturer picks it up its down for good....... 

[chinoguym20]

9 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Lets , see , Pumping 150 million into a sinking ship , and providing employment for Americans for 7 years losing money is treating the employees like "Dumb Americans" is an assanine statement , The employees , and all of us owners , owe them a huge debt of gratitude , for supporting the fleet these past 7 years...

You have no idea what went on within those walls, so I suggest you listen, rather than talk. You obviously think you know, but don’t. Mooney is dead, the spares business is not sustainable.  Let’s all move on. 

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, HRM said:

I am not a businessman or financier, but I don't understand why they don't just keep the parts activity going and forget about building new airplanes for a while.

I am guessing there is not enough business even in that space.

<sigh>

 I think there’s plenty of business in that space to employ a Crew making spare parts. There are something like 8000 of these airplanes out there and eventually they all need something. 4000$ ailerons and elevators are pretty profitable.  Mooney has seriously raised their parts prices in the past 5 years or so.  

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, chinoguym20 said:

You have no idea what went on within those walls, so I suggest you listen, rather than talk. You obviously think you know, but don’t. Mooney is dead, the spares business is not sustainable.  Let’s all move on. 

Gee whiz.......Mr. chinoguym............

Whoops............forgot the 20 part of your handle...............sorry !

[MikeOH]

52 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 I think there’s plenty of business in that space to employ a Crew making spare parts. There are something like 8000 of these airplanes out there and eventually they all need something. 4000$ ailerons and elevators are pretty profitable.  Mooney has seriously raised their parts prices in the past 5 years or so.  

Maybe...jury is still out in my mind whether a new parts replacement business is really sustainable.  For example, shortly after I bought my M20F I pulled a boneheaded move and hangar rashed my right elevator beyond repair.  I wasn't about to pay Mooney for a multi-AMU part...I found a perfect one in a salvage yard...$700 with shipping.

How many wear items require Mooney parts?  How often is Mooney the ONLY place to get a replacement part?  I"m not saying there's not a need, just is the demand high enough to provide a viable business model in light of other options?  A going business cannot wait for eventually.

Edited January 8, 2020 by MikeOH

[cliffy]

To make the parts you have to buy the intellectual property-

Buy or rent the physical facilities (what do the lights and heating/cooling, security, janitorial, etc cost)-

Hire people who can actually make the parts (skilled trades in many different venues)-

Get the FAA PMA approvals ( from material suppliers to out the door shipping)-

And then factor in INSURANCE for manufacturing aviation parts -

Anyone wanna guess the cost of that last item?  

And then figure out what the market revenue is going to be?   HMMMMM

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Maybe...jury is still out in my mind whether a new parts replacement business is really sustainable.  For example, shortly after I bought my M20F I pulled a boneheaded move and hangar rashed my right elevator beyond repair.  I wasn't about to pay Mooney for a multi-AMU part...I found a perfect one in a salvage yard...$700 with shipping.

How many wear items require Mooney parts?  How often is Mooney the ONLY place to get a replacement part?  I"m not saying there's not a need, just is the demand high enough to provide a viable business model in light of other options?  A going business cannot wait for eventually.

I figured it was viable  when I paid $7000 for two ailerons, and then I had to spend two years finding 2 serviceable M20J corrugated elevators, the factory was not making them at the time because their heat treater was broken. But they were like $6000 apiece list price.

Things like gear doors and belly skins will always be in demand from people gearing up the airplanes. I think those are over $1000 each now too. Order every piece in the catalog and build yourself a new Ovation out of it and then see how many millions that cost.. 

[RLCarter]

28 minutes ago, cliffy said:

And then factor in INSURANCE for manufacturing aviation parts -

Anyone wanna guess the cost of that last item?  

40+% of the retail price according to a GAMA video I saw....and that was several years ago

[carusoam]

I sense one of us is waking up with a splitting head ache on Wednesday morning...  

Keep in mind... we are all on the same team...

It ain’t over til it’s over... - Yogi B.

Marauders friends aren't even tuning up yet... - some opera reference.

Yes, it is difficult to work hard at a company and have its doors close... (need a list?)

Maintaining respect for each other is important, no matter how you feel in the moment...

 

As usual... MS is on the internet, but it isn’t the internet... it is a community of like minded people...

Throwing barbs at somebody else in the community won’t help anyone get to their next level...

peace.

 

The world has much bigger problems today.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[cliffy]

Do that and you have to move the entire factory over there and you still need FAA approval to manufacture

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, RLCarter said:

40+% of the retail price according to a GAMA video I saw....and that was several years ago

Well darn, there goes making a J for less than 200K

 

[tigers2007]

Someone mentioned India here. Mahindra still makes/sells Willy’s Jeeps in India (under permanent license from Jeep) and recently started selling them in the US as “off road vehicles” again under the Roxor name. Last I knew, Fiat Chrysler is suing them for selling Jeeps in the US without their permission but I doubt that got any traction. There is serious irony here too as Mahindra built a brand new assembly plant in Auburn Hills, MI to re-assemble the Roxors that are made in India, dissassembled, and containerized (Auburn Hills is Chrysler’s HQ city).
With the cheap cost of manufacturing, they could make all metal Mooney’s again at a fraction of the cost and zip the final fuselage halves and wings to the US. I really wonder if they could hit an economy of scale with the low volume. Mahindra can do it because it doesn’t cost them much to make the Roxors. Heck its only $14-16k for a brand new turbo diesel Willy’s Jeep versus $19-22k for a comparable side-by-side UTV.


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[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Someone mentioned India here. Mahindra still makes/sells Willy’s Jeeps in India (under permanent license from Jeep) and recently started selling them in the US as “off road vehicles” again under the Roxor name. Last I knew, Fiat Chrysler is suing them for selling Jeeps in the US without their permission but I doubt that got any traction. There is serious irony here too as Mahindra built a brand new assembly plant in Auburn Hills, MI to re-assemble the Roxors that are made in India, dissassembled, and containerized (Auburn Hills is Chrysler’s HQ city).
With the cheap cost of manufacturing, they could make all metal Mooney’s again at a fraction of the cost and zip the final fuselage halves and wings to the US. I really wonder if they could hit an economy of scale with the low volume. Mahindra can do it because it doesn’t cost them much to make the Roxors. Heck its only $14-16k for a brand new turbo diesel Willy’s Jeep versus $19-22k for a comparable side-by-side UTV.


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Last I read Jeep was suing them for copyright infringement because the grill looked to much like their logo. 

[MooneyMitch]

Mooney Employees Furloughed Again

Marc Cook

January 6, 2020

 

Employees at Mooney’s Kerrville plant, furloughed on Nov. 11 and recalled in early December, are once again out of work. The Kerrville Daily Times is reporting that employees were told to “go home” today and that the company would not be giving them the two weeks of holiday pay they were promised earlier this month.

Devan Burns, who worked for Mooney in human resources, told the paper that 55 employees were discharged today. “There have been a lot of promises,” she said. “I’ve just been trying to help keep Mooney stay alive. It’s extremely frustrating.” As we mentioned earlier, Mooney was seeking additional investment. Burns acknowledged this to the Kerrville Daily Times but said she “wasn’t sure what the future held.” AVwebwill have more information when it becomes available. 

[N205S]

I had a pending order through LASAR, whom put it in with the Factory, for the 3'' Rudder Pedal Extensions for my new-to-me M20J 205. What's the chances these still get shipped out from Mooney? Any other options available for these?

[MooneyMitch]

7 minutes ago, N205S said:

I had a pending order through LASAR, whom put it in with the Factory, for the 3'' Rudder Pedal Extensions for my new-to-me M20J 205. What's the chances these still get shipped out from Mooney? Any other options available for these?

Possibly contact LASAR with your question.