Mooney's answer to the 'chute?

[mike_elliott]

A few of you have known about this, but for the rest, its now out in the wild. Suffice it to say it wont be an upgrade, but perhaps on new Ultras?

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/?utm_source=Americas&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=en-US Delivery%2C Autoland Announcement%2C avn%2C MCJT-26608

[Seth]

That’s a great answer

[Seth]

It’s on the M600 and SF50 (or soon will be).

Mooney would have to add:

Auto Throttle

Flap control by computer 

Gear control by computer

Servo for nosewheel/rudder

Then just software.  
 Very neat idea.

Does the current Ultra have 

1. Envelope protection

2.  Decent mode for hypoxia
 

 

-Seth

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Seth said:

It’s on the M600 and SF50 (or soon will be).

Mooney would have to add:

Auto Throttle ADD ONE SERVO on MP and wth, add one for mixture.

Flap control by computer - Existing SOftware in autonomi

Gear control by computer - Existing Software in autonomi

Servo for nosewheel/rudder - Nope existing software in autonomi - has rudder trim servo already

Then just software.  
 Very neat idea.

Does the current Ultra have 

1. Envelope protection -No, been on our bitch list for a while

2.  Decent mode for hypoxia - no but emergency decent will be part of autonomi by definition
 

 

-Seth

 

[StevenL757]

I wonder if the autobrake system would also provide antiskid capabilities.  Would (or does) this system take braking action reports into account during touchdown and subsequently rollout?  Probably tons more questions to be asked about this and other elements of the system, but I like what I see for starters.

Steve

[DXB]

Looks like very impressive technology! I love how it tells ATC what's up automatically. It could provide some peace of mind, particularly for older pilots and their passengers.  Sudden pilot incapacitation from a medical problem in flight seems spectacularly rare however.  Among external causes of pilot incapacitation, the CO poisoning category seems particularly relevant on piston singles, but that can be largely solved with a much cheaper CO monitor. Cabin pressurization or O2 system failure risks would also be mitigated, and that may be where a system like this has greatest appeal.  One could also imagine a situation where it makes it possible for a pilot to deal with a sick or unruly passenger safely.  

[irishpilot]

It's a great step forward and gets the rest GA closer to the Cirrus Chute, but not all the way. In order to get all the way there, Garmin needs an engine-out autonomous profile. Here's my suggestion:

Plane detects engine failure and does:
1. Turn - towards nearest airfield
2. Climb - zoom to capture best glide
3. Clean - leave up to pilot discretion?
4. Check - checklist for restart, check to see if inside glide profile, checklist for off-field landing

If we can get to autonomous engine out profiles, it will make it that much safer, especially in low wx situations.

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod

[elimansour]

This is amazing technology!  Hopefully it will trickle down to the next generation of light aircraft (Mooney) avionics.  While auto throttle, auto braking, etc. may not make it to our Mooneys a simpler autonomi / auto land system (w/o bells and whistles) that would instruct the right seat passenger to take certain actions (pull back power to X% / displayed hash mark,  pull mixture all the way out, etc.) could still be very useful.  

 

[gsxrpilot]

This doesn't seem to be much of an engine out feature that would replace the chute, but rather a system to put @mooneygirl Right Seat Ready program out of business. And even  @donkaye and his landing video for those who just can't seem to land their Mooney well. 

[mike_elliott]

AI is so rapidly developing. I currently own a car that has self driving capabilities and they have been found to be 9x safer than cars manually driven, even at level 2 autonomy. Wait until Level 4 is available!

 Ultimately, Autonomous piloting will be here, count on it. For a couple of years, I have been biting my tongue on this technology in Garmin's "skunkwerks", and see this virtual parachute as a vast improvement in safety. Granted it wont save an in flight breakup like a chute, but has a lot of advantages over a last ditch action like a chute. The wish list of Irish pilot exists in this technology already, next wish...

Will it trickle down to Mooney? Hold my beer...

If Mooney had a 3600# GW and this, would there be a compelling reason to buy a CIrrus?

[MIm20c]

56 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

This doesn't seem to be much of an engine out feature that would replace the chute, but rather a system to put @mooneygirl Right Seat Ready program out of business. And even  @donkaye and his landing video for those who just can't seem to land their Mooney well. 

I think with high res topo maps the system could be a huge benefit for an engine out situation to find the best outcome crash site. 

[KB4]

12 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

pilot obsolescence is an inevitability. 

Yes very true.  But after lessons learned from Lion Air, doubtful we won't see this in our lifetime on anything but cargo.  

[MIm20c]

I don’t see any reason why this could not be added to a plane with a txi/750/345/gfc500. It would be a crash land where the passenger would need to reduce the power (when the pfd told them too) and the system would belly it in on a nice long runway. 

[kortopates]

I want one! too bad it only comes with the G3000 system, but perhaps there will be an upgrade path for the Gx000 planes  (but I doubt the # will pencil out to see that happen)

[mike_elliott]

Just now, kortopates said:

I want one! too bad it only comes with the G3000 system, but perhaps there will be an upgrade path for the Gx000 planes  (but I doubt the # will pencil out to see that happen)

stay tuned.... probably not an upgrade path for gx000 but could possibly be for gx000 nxi. I think that is what it was developed on but unsure..source decided to "shut up" on me now

 

[kortopates]

6 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I think with high res topo maps the system could be a huge benefit for an engine out situation to find the best outcome crash site. 

I think airports work since the navigator already has a visual approach to every runway  at every airport to use - plus this technology is a long ways off from dealing with engine outs.

[gsxrpilot]

11 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I think airports work since the navigator already has a visual approach to every runway  at every airport to use - plus this technology is a long ways off from dealing with engine outs.

I agree. I really think it's a huge leap from autoland on an airport runway with a functioning instrument approach and picking out the least bad of all bad options for an off field landing. 

Even in Texas where the landing options seem endless, it might fly through some power lines on approach or line up in the center of a cow pasture and fly right into the one tree in the middle of the pasture. Even with high resolution maps of the terrain, it's a huge leap. Tesla does an amazing job with their autodrive in their cars. But put that same system on a Jeep and see if it can navigate the Hells Gate trail in Moab.

This system looks to solve the problem of pilot incapacitation or a pilot's inability to shoot an approach in 0/0 conditions. But I don't think it does anything for running out of fuel or catastrophic engine failure. And I don't suspect it will for a very long time.

[mike_elliott]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

But I don't think it does anything for running out of fuel or catastrophic engine failure. And I don't suspect it will for a very long time.

It wont solve the "i didnt add enough fuel" like the chute will, but a pilot can still use his skill set to find a suitable landing site if terrain permits. The chute gets a nod here if terrain doesnt allow an off field landing.

Engine failure same thing, except if engine failure on takeoff under 500' AGL cute is worthless also. A crashworthy airframe goes a long way I hear...

[Bob_Belville]

@gsxrpilot  Paul, what's the quip about the impossibility to idiot-proof any system from a sufficiently determined  idiot?

[afward]

What I think is interesting about this: X-plane Flight Simulator's creator (Austin Meyers) was working on this with TruTrak back in 2014.  Not nearly as polished or capable, but there's video of them landing an RV-10 dead-stick from cruise via autonomous control (Xavion running on iPad driving TruTrak A/P over wifi).  Five years ago.  There's another where they demo'ed a pilot incapacitation mode (it was focused on a dead-man's switch implementation).  Methinks Garmin saw a good idea and "borrowed" it (though Garmin's is a very impressive implementation).

Looking at what they've talked about so far, I imagine Garmin's system is turbine-only for the near- to mid-future.  Autonomous piston engine management is a bit beyond the extant integrations for certified aircraft.  Maybe someone else will release something similar, but for piston aircraft?

[gsxrpilot]

32 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

It wont solve the "i didnt add enough fuel" like the chute will, but a pilot can still use his skill set to find a suitable landing site if terrain permits. The chute gets a nod here if terrain doesnt allow an off field landing.

Engine failure same thing, except if engine failure on takeoff under 500' AGL cute is worthless also. A crashworthy airframe goes a long way I hear...

Yep, in full agreement here. You can put me in the camp of those preferring a nearly unbreakable airframe, spar and steel cage, to a chute any day.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The G3000 M600 SLS with HALO is looking like a nice step up with the new stability, autoland and automatic descent features.

Several of the MMOPA group have already been shown the M600 SLS starting last August.  Their demo rides include a full stop, full autoland arrival.  Said one, “Sure makes the Cirrus parachute look silly.”  
 

[ArtVandelay]

Yep, in full agreement here. You can put me in the camp of those preferring a nearly unbreakable airframe, spar and steel cage, to a chute any day.

That steel cage doesn’t seem to prevent fires.


Tom

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I don’t see any reason why this could not be added to a plane with a txi/750/345/gfc500. It would be a crash land where the passenger would need to reduce the power (when the pfd told them too) and the system would belly it in on a nice long runway. 

The gfc500 in its current version couldn't possibly handle this.  I think you need autopilot control over throttles - auto throttle.  Otherwise the autopilot would be planting an airplane on the runway at cruise speed.

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

The G3000 M600 SLS with HALO is looking like a nice step up with the new stability, autoland and automatic descent features.

Several of the MMOPA group have already been shown the M600 SLS starting last August.  Their demo rides include a full stop, full autoland arrival.  Said one, “Sure makes the Cirrus parachute look silly.”  
 

Right on - in an engine out scenario in a single engine I would rather have a parachute in some situations.  Although we all know an airplane can sometimes be landed on a runway in an engine out situation (ugh...scary memory but I have done it live in a real engine out scenario myself).  So ideally an auto land system would allow for engine out when possible - but wouldn't simply envelope protection also be a major help for a human piloted airplane in an engine out scenario?  Anyway auto land would be a safety enhancer if it also covered engine out.

And surely in these situations its safer to land on a runway than to pull a parachute and land who knows where.

But ... when will there be autopilot solutions for twin engine airplane.  Auto throttle, auto-feather auto-pilot for when the second engine goes out in a twin?  That would make twins - even piston twins - hands down safer than singles if that auto-pilot stuff covers even take off engine outs.