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Need a new #2 Nav/Com


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Funny thing is I have an airway that passes right over the top of my home field but the VOR is too close (5 miles) so I have to fly outbound 15+ mi min. before I can perform a legal single VOR check.

Sorry for the thread creep but this should be a consideration for anyone making avionics decisions.

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1 hour ago, MinneMooney said:

Funny thing is I have an airway that passes right over the top of my home field but the VOR is too close (5 miles) so I have to fly outbound 15+ mi min. before I can perform a legal single VOR check.

Sorry for the thread creep but this should be a consideration for anyone making avionics decisions.

Doh!  That is annoying.  I have a VOR at my home airport, and another about 25 miles away at EUG.  There is also an FAA approved VOR ground reference point on the ramp at our airport, so we seem to have a surplus of options...

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I went with a used GNC 255 that I’m installing right now.  I considered the GNC 355 but decided that if my primary navigator goes down, I just want something that will give me the ability to shoot an ILS.  If I have an emergency I’m most likely headed to a big airport that commercial jets fly in.  They have ILS.  That’s not going away any time soon.  

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On 10/29/2019 at 11:04 AM, MinneMooney said:

Funny thing is I have an airway that passes right over the top of my home field but the VOR is too close (5 miles) so I have to fly outbound 15+ mi min. before I can perform a legal single VOR check.

Sorry for the thread creep but this should be a consideration for anyone making avionics decisions.

What is the scenario you’d want to do a vor check? If you have gps the only time you need to use the nav radio is for a possible ILS and that doesn’t require the vor check. 

-Robert 

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19 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

What is the scenario you’d want to do a vor check? If you have gps the only time you need to use the nav radio is for a possible ILS and that doesn’t require the vor check. 

-Robert 

I currently have a (TSO-C129)Garmin 430 non-waas. Technically, I need my VOR to legally navigate on an IFR flight plan. Can’t wait to install my new Avidyne IFD-440!

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1 hour ago, MinneMooney said:

I currently have a (TSO-C129)Garmin 430 non-waas. Technically, I need my VOR to legally navigate on an IFR flight plan. Can’t wait to install my new Avidyne IFD-440!

This isn't true.  Non-WAAS GPS is perfectly legal for IFR navigation and has been for 25 years- way before WAAS had even been invented.  The biggest difference in this respect is that with non-WAAS navigators you have to check RAIM availability before flight. 

There was a time, a long time ago, when you could not use GPS to fly a VOR approach unless the title of the approach read VOR or GPS.  In those cases, you had to monitor the VOR approach if you had your GPS fly that approach.  I seriously doubt any of those approaches still remain, like for the last 10 years. 

I'm  not sure where misinformation like this comes from.  Probably uninformed flight instructors who were, themselves, taught incorrectly.

Edit- if your GNS-430's installation was as VFR only, then of course all bets are off.

Edited by Andy95W
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Andy, has there been a change? This is what I found on AOPA’s web-site: https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2016/july/01/are-30-day-vor-checks-still-required-for-ifr-flight

it’s from 2016. Unless there’s been a change, it says a Garmin 430 non-waas (TSO-C129) requires 30 day VOR checks.

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3 hours ago, MinneMooney said:

I currently have a (TSO-C129)Garmin 430 non-waas. Technically, I need my VOR to legally navigate on an IFR flight plan. Can’t wait to install my new Avidyne IFD-440!

You could just use a ham sandwich and use the vor as backup. There is no requirement for any certification for the primary equipment you use to navigate enroute. You could shoot stars,  pocket ins system, deadrec etc. 

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1
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Kim- I've had to go back and reread my references!  And no question about it, I might certainly be wrong.

The part that I'm referring to is what goes way back to the original interpretation by the FAA:

------------------------------------------

(b) Conduct GPS domestic, en route, and  
terminal IFR operations only when approved  
avionics systems are installed. Pilots may use GPS  
via TSO-C129() authorized for Class A1, B1, B3,

 When using TSO-C129() or
TSO-C196() receivers, the avionics necessary to
receive all of the ground-based facilities appropriate
for the route to the destination airport and any
required alternate airport must be installed and
operational. Ground-based facilities necessary for  
these routes must be operational.

-----------------------------------------

So from the above, if you were to use your 430 to navigate using Victor airways, then you would need VOR and do the checks.  If you navigated using your 430 direct to the destination (or waypoints), then there are no ground facilities so you wouldn't need the VORs.  You could also fly any GPS or RNAV approach without having a backup VOR.  (The regulations continue- I couldn't find it specifically- that for C129 if you needed an alternate, then that alternate must have an approach that was not GPS based, meaning VOR/ILS and you would need to do the VOR checks.)

The AOPA article is a little confusing in the way it's written- specifically this part: 

"Some of these “129” units (such as the non-WAAS Garmin 430) contain a certified VOR and ILS and, when that functionality is used for IFR flight, (my emphasis added) they must be checked operationally and the results logged under 14 CFR 91.171 just like any other VOR receiver."

Therefore, if you aren't going to use the VOR or ILS for your flight, then you don't need to do the checks.

I don't think there's been a change, except that technically TSO C129 has been effectively cancelled for new receivers because all the manufacturers have gone to the C146 standard.

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3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Kim- I've had to go back and reread my references!  And no question about it, I might certainly be wrong.

The part that I'm referring to is what goes way back to the original interpretation by the FAA:

------------------------------------------

(b) Conduct GPS domestic, en route, and  
terminal IFR operations only when approved  
avionics systems are installed. Pilots may use GPS  
via TSO-C129() authorized for Class A1, B1, B3,
 

Just bring a sexton. Its legal IFR navigation and requires no TSO. YOu can use your 430 just for situational awareness.

-Robert

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I think in your case ( @MinneMooney) I would feel comfortable using your 430 for enroute, terminal, and approach navigation as C129 says.  I would check RAIM before every IFR flight, if you need an alternate, make sure it is either VFR or has ILS/VOR available, and I would use the VOR airway that goes directly over your home field for the VOR check - even though it is only 5 miles away from the VOR.  Technically, the requirement for VOR checks says preferably at least 20 miles away, but it doesn't say it is required.  It might be splitting hairs, but honestly your non-WAAS GPS is more accurate than those VORs anyway! 

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11 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Just bring a sexton. Its legal IFR navigation and requires no TSO. YOu can use your 430 just for situational awareness.

-Robert

Since us non-denominational Protestants don't have much in the way of bishops, sextons, etc., will my preacher suffice?

On the other hand, a sextant is useful for shooting the position of stars and the inclination of the sun.

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So the fun part of the 430...

It has four radios in one box...

1) GPS

2) VOR 

3) ILS

4) Comm

 

So.... if you are using it to receive VORs and displaying it on an indicator... it would make sense to perform the monthly test and log it on that piece of paper / spiral notebook somewhere...

Expect when you are flying VOR to VOR on your IFR flight plan using GPS... it would make sense to flip the source to the VOR and check that the indicator is still within the expected tolerance...

The fancy G box is actually attached to all these antennas, not just a single GPS antenna... and switching between all the receiver options is internal to the box... when you select the type of approach being used...

At least that is how I understood it to work... my BK GPS is in a separate box so there is less confusion... the switch is external with a light bulb associated with it...

Let me know if I have missed something...

PP thoughts only, not a navcom expert...

Best regards,

-a-

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20 hours ago, Andy95W said:

What if the sexton is a trained navigator carrying a sextant?

Is there a 30-day accuracy check required for a Sextant Sexton?  Do you need two Sextant Sextons to do it easily?  If they dont' agree, do they argue?

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23 minutes ago, bob865 said:

Is there a 30-day accuracy check required for a Sextant Sexton?  Do you need two Sextant Sextons to do it easily?  If they dont' agree, do they argue?

No, he just needs a copy of the most recent star charts from the Naval Observatory. They're probably available online now . . . .

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