KLR10 AOA audio input to AMX240

[Mark942]

Hey guys,

I'm 3 years into the restoration of my M20E. Last year I upgraded the panel with Avidyne IFD550 navigator, AXP322 Remote xponder and AMX240 audio panel along with other goodies. The work was all done by a avionics shop.  This year I am installing a Bendix/King KLR10 AOA myself with my AP/IA looking over my shoulder.  The install has been a fair amount of work including the probe install but it has all gone very well.  I am finalizing the wiring and have an aux output from the KLR10 for audio input to my audio panel.  My problem is that I don't have any wiring information about my AMX240 and every attempt to download the actual Avidyne installation manual or a wiring schematic has gotten me no where.  Does anyone have information they can share??

[carusoam]

Avidyne  has some strong support structure..... usually..?

Today, I went looking for an install manual for the AMX240 expecting to find support for the experimental guys....

At least a wiring diagram and labeled inputs....

They also have or had a community forum if you look around...

Good luck finding an answer... post pics when able.

MS has a few Avidyne users and Avidyne contacts... wish my memory was stronger.... 

Expect it to be in a more obvious place... it can’t possibly be so difficult...

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

I think the 240 is made by ps engineering. I’m not sure what model it’s based on but I’m sure the wiring is the same. Does the 240 slide into a Garmin 340 tray? If so the wiring is he same as the pma8000 series. 
 

edit: here are a couple installation instructions IF the unit is based on the 8000 series. Link to installation manual

Edited October 26, 2019 by MIm20c

[carusoam]

MS has a really good PSEngineering contact if MI’s thought is true...   ^^^^

@ Mscheuer see if Mark is around...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Mark942]

I have no idea what type of mounting (tray) was used for the install. Monday I am going to reach out to Avidyne and see if they can tell me, or even better yet, give me a wiring diagram for connecting the audio from the KCR10.

Thanks MI for the info. I'm going to print this off and poke around up under the panel and see what I can see.

Thanks again,

-mark

[Mooney in Oz]

On 10/27/2019 at 6:36 AM, MIm20c said:

I think the 240 is made by ps engineering. I’m not sure what model it’s based on

PS Engineering 8000BT.

[Mscheuer]

Mlm20c was spot on.

The AMX240 was based upon our PMA8000BT, so the drawing that was posted is correct.

There is a 4th unswitched/unmuted input on the other connector.

Feel free to go to www.ps-engineering.com/downloads.shtml

Mark

[carusoam]

Way to go, Mark!

Go PS!

Lets see if @Mark942 is cruising by...

Besr regards,

-a-

[Mark942]

Thank you guys.  I am Always so impressed at the power of the knowledge of the group.  Again, thanks so much.

-mark

[Blue on Top]

On 11/1/2019 at 10:12 AM, Mark942 said:

Thank you guys.  I am Always so impressed at the power of the knowledge of the group.  Again, thanks so much.

-mark

Have you flown the unit yet?  How do you like it?  Any possibilities to get photos of the probe installation?  Thanks -Ron

[Mark942]

Haven't flown the plane with the AOA yet.  I'll try to round up some photos of the install.  It went very straight forward but did take a few hours including fabricating the inspection cover replacement out of the sheet metal they provided.  I'm going to have my CFII fly with me when I do the inflight calibration.  Never have been a fan of how the Mooney stalls, and even getting close to it while messing with the AOA doesn't sound like a good idea to me, so I am going to fly the plane and let my CFII play with the calibration.

[Blue on Top]

4 hours ago, Mark942 said:

Haven't flown the plane with the AOA yet.

Thank you!  Pictures will be great.

Your plan for AOA/stall testing is a good one.  There is nothing to fear with Mooney stalls (or any other certificated airplane).  Keep the ball in the center (coordinated).  You'll be fine.

[Blue on Top]

4 hours ago, Mark942 said:

Never have been a fan of how the Mooney stalls, and even getting close to it while messing with the AOA doesn't sound like a good idea to me ...

BTW if you want, I have video of a "professionally" tufted M20J wing during stalls (all configurations).  It's very benign.  Thanks, Scott Sellmeyer!  I think that your stall strip(s) might be in a different location(s).

[Mark942]

23 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

Thank you!  Pictures will be great.

Your plan for AOA/stall testing is a good one.  There is nothing to fear with Mooney stalls (or any other certificated airplane).  Keep the ball in the center (coordinated).  You'll be fine.

I have done stalls hundreds of times in the C brand and also Cherokees and even a Sundowner I once owned.  Used to LOVE slow flight.  Keep slowing down until your just hanging on the edge.  Buffet so bad that after a while you think you are going to shake all the rivets loose.  But, in my Mooney E, which I absolutely, absolutely love to fly and how tight it handles, the slow flight "slosh" around makes me start to get air sick after a minute or so.  The stall seems to always fall off pretty hard on a wing, and not always the same wing.  Just feels like zero effective controls.  I had someone tell me it was because of the laminar flow wing???

Any thoughts??

-mark

[Blue on Top]

6 minutes ago, Mark942 said:

I had someone tell me it was because of the laminar flow wing???  Any thoughts??  -mark

Mark:  Definitely NOT the laminar flow wing.  The wing has some, but little laminar flow like most airfoils (yes, MooneySpace people, when you flame me, please do it to me personally at solutions@blueontop.com or fly-in-home@att.net or PM me on Facebook or call me at (316) 295-7812).  Or better yet, attend one of my Oshkosh presentations.  Now that leads me to a great question.

If I did an Oshkosh Forum on Mooney aerodynamics, would any one here be interested?  I appreciate hecklers (challenges), too!  

Off my soapbox and back to stall characteristics.  Bad stall characteristics are typically due to leading edge separation (with newer airfoils), early separation in front of the aileron span or mislocated stall strips.  The Mooney airfoil has little leading edge camber, so leading edge separation is out.  I have not seen separation ahead of the aileron span in the work I have done.  And, in your case, either both the stall strips are fine or they are both located too low.  The fact that your airplane falls off both left and right is a good sign.  Scott did a great job flying stalls when we were tufted so I don't know how much tolerance their is for correcting roll variations with aileron.  The forward swept vertical fin and rudder are very affective around stall.  Try using rudder to level the wings during the approach to stall.

If you really think that something bad is lurking in the aerodynamics.  Let me know, and I'll write up a simple plan to make you feel more at ease.

PS. The best stalling airplane I have flown is the Citation X (we tailored the characteristics well); the worst is the T-38 … but that one gives you tons of violent warning first.

[Mark942]

Thanks for the feedback on Mooney stalls.  I am always looking for ways to learn about my plane, and how to be a better and safer pilot. So, I for one, would love to attend an Oshkosh Mooney aerodynamics presentation.  I'm an engineer so I love "Data" to go with opinion.  I will go out and try playing with the Rudder more during slow flight.  The ailerons just don't seem to have much authority.

-mark

[David_H]

46 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

The Mooney airfoil has little leading edge camber, so leading edge separation is out. 

... leading edge camber on a Mooney airfoil.

MS isn't a Journal publication and certainly doesn't have a scientific review process to vet information... but really?

[Blue on Top]

10 minutes ago, David_H said:

MS isn't a Journal publication and certainly doesn't have a scientific review process to vet information... but really?

This is turbulent flow.  Each of the tufts is a little VG.  None of the flow behind the second row is laminar (and little behind/between the first row of tufts).  Really 

[David_H]

11 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

This is turbulent flow.  Each of the tufts is a little VG.  None of the flow behind the second row is laminar (and little behind/between the first row of tufts).  Really 

Tell us all how the leading edge camber affects this image...

Edited December 5, 2019 by David_H
Edit: Changed to (affects this image ...)

[Blue on Top]

32 minutes ago, David_H said:

Tell us all how the leading edge camber affects this image...

(generically) Mooney uses the 63-215 airfoil (above).  The mean camber line (average distance between upper and lower surfaces) is in green and the chord line is black.  One can see that those 2 curves don't differ a lot ...especially at the leading edge.  If the leading edge camber was very high, the tuft picture/video would show all the tufts aft of the leading edge back to the trailing edge swirling (separated flow) as the stalled section of the wing progressed outboard. 

[carusoam]

Blue, @Blue on Top

you may want to introduce yourself...

Add some data to your signature line...

It would be nice to refer to some of your work that you have presented...

It would be great to separate you, from some guy on the internet...

I had you confused with @blue sky traveler, and @blue highway

Anonymity is nice for some, tough for others...

Best regards,

-a- 

[Blue on Top]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

you may want to introduce yourself...

It would be nice to refer to some of your work that you have presented...

Anonymity is nice for some, tough for others...

-a- 

Hello MooneySpace members.  My name is Ron Blum, and I am a chronic aviation geek and engineer that can't stop learning.  I have created and managed Flight Test and Aerodynamics groups at many of the GA OEMs across the country.  My last position was chief engineer on the Mooney M10 in Chino, CA.  I have since started a company called Blue on Top LLC (referring to an aircraft attitude indicator).  The goal of Blue on Top is to educate, consult and produce STCs and products that make aviation safer and less expensive.  I dislike anonymity on the internet and freely give out my contact information: solutions@blueontop.com, fly-in-home@att.net, 316-295-7812.  I am here to help you.

PS. -a-  I don't know that I know you, but I can seriously make your Ovation a little lighter and faster.  I believe that you mentioned in another thread that you have a balance weight in the tail. That scares me.  Center of Gravity is important, but so is inertia about the vertical axis of the airplane.  As an example, if you put two 20 lbs. bags on the CG the GW will go up 40 lbs.  If you put those same two bags one 5' forward of the CG and the other 5' aft of the CG, the gross weight and CG will be the same, but the spin characteristics will be significantly different.  Again, here to help.

[Mark942]

Hello Gentlemen,

I know I was the one that drove this thread off on a tangent about flight aerodynamics when I mentioned that my E's slow flight characteristics made me queasy, with regard to in-flight calibration of my newly installed AOA.  I think the discussion taking place is a very important topic and I would love to follow along as more information, opinions and hopefully data are shared with us all.  I would suggest Ron, that you start a new thread with a title of something like "Mooney Flight Characteristics" or just "Aerodynamics of a Mooney" or something logical, so that it is easy to locate in searches later.  I would also suggest that you re-post your posts from this thread along with those of others in this new thread, and then hopefully others will join in and we can build a body of information for all of us to review.

Just my opinion, I'm not the moderator

-mark

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

I believe that you mentioned in another thread that you have a balance weight in the tail. That scares me.  Center of Gravity is important, but so is inertia about the vertical axis of the airplane.  As an example, if you put two 20 lbs. bags on the CG the GW will go up 40 lbs.  If you put those same two bags one 5' forward of the CG and the other 5' aft of the CG, the gross weight and CG will be the same, but the spin characteristics will be significantly different.  Again, here to help.

Thanks for adding the details Ron.  Nice to make your acquaintance...
 

Regarding the Charley weights mounted in Long Bodies...

These are related to WnB challenges of various owners... 

Some owners got useful devices back there like AC, O₂ and/or a FIKI anti-ice system... I got a rock. 

Actually it’s a stack of lead bricks, waiting for my mission to change to need these nice upgrades...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Now...  back on topic... 

Many people have added an AOAi over the recent few years...

I have had the opportunity to fly with one, with 201er in his J.  Watch his videos... he likes flying with precision... landings with great centerline control while gently lowering the nose...

Calibration is a real calibration, based on actual AOA of the plane it is mounted in...

Probably best to be comfortable with slow flight, stalls, and stall recovery... while pushing buttons...

It probably isn’t required to perform a stall, but... in the event one occurs... good to be ready...

No reason not to bring your favorite CFI along for the exercise...

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-