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Mooney down in Jefferson county, West Virginia


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It is difficult for an ordinary pilot to estimate the AoA at a steep turn, because there is no (better would be little) clue at all. The  yellow stripe could be a good reminder- NO (level) TURN  of 45 degrees and more below this speed....

Just my opinion. Sorry for my englisch.

Edited by brndiar
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8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I see it more as a tool during an emergency situation, flying clean, and staying above stall speed and not getting slow trying to stretch it out. 

For the pattern I don't think it does anything for me, I fly the same 100/90/80 that you do and am so focused on the speeds at each point in the pattern I don't think I'm going to get slow. 

 But we already know that +/-5kts glide speed (LD max) is not going to help the cause of extending the distance. You’ve ostensibly  if unintentionally marked an area ~LD max (best glide) for your aircraft. Flying with the needle much below isn’t going to stretch anything. That it’s 1.4xVs seems a trivial fact.

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Interesting video that may help keep pilots safer. Stall prevention is key. But, when an imminent stall happens low to the ground, or worse yet on takeoff with engine loss, we have to be preprogrammed to immediately lower the nose as discussed in the video- although I don’t believe we need to really go into negative Gs.

Many pilots who have successfully dealt with engine loss  shortly after takeoff will tell you that the immediate pitch down site picture staring at the ground can be alarming, but necessary when close to stall speed. This is why I like a little speed buffer at and immediately after rotation. In piston twins, it’s  at least Vmc + 5 knots for rotation because speed decays quickly  with engine loss on takeoff. 

Briefing every takeoff with the expectation of an engine failure is a great idea. Even better is to have a preset plan for what you’re going to do with an engine failure at various altitudes and positions on takeoff and climb out. Glider pilots are immediately taught to call out 200 or 300 feet AGL as a decision point for  turning back or landing straight ahead in the event of a rope break or towplane engine failure.

I Know the engine out landing options at the ends of each runway at familiar local airports, but I could definitely do a better job at studying my options at unfamiliar airports some of which require choosing the best of lousy choices for an off field landing. Flying in the Rockies, I try to frequently play the what if I lost an engine here?  where would I go? game. Being ready for the unexpected may make all the difference some day.

 

 

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I think it should be mandatory on the Mooney FRs to go up high.   set up take off configuration full power nose high and have the power pulled so people learn to push down.   This should be done 3 or 4 times.   Muscle memory is the key.   Power off Push down.  Power off Push down.  Hear the stall horn push down Hear the stall horn push down.

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I think the purpose of the video is to point out that the old adage of "maintaining flying airspeed" is not drilled into pilots. And I think the reason for the marking on the airspeed indicator is to get the pilot to quickly to the correct speed. Anyone who has had an engine event close to the ground will tell you how hard it is to think clearly when you are initially dealing with the "oh crap" reaction. Having a visual aid and not remembering the number is a way to do that.

 

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I think the purpose of the video is to point out that the old adage of "maintaining flying airspeed" is not drilled into pilots. And I think the reason for the marking on the airspeed indicator is to get the pilot to quickly to the correct speed. Anyone who has had an engine event close to the ground will tell you how hard it is to think clearly when you are initially dealing with the "oh crap" reaction. Having a visual aid and not remembering the number is a way to do that.

 

I think we can all agree that a Vbg mark on the ASI has merit. Using it as a minimum airspeed with the engine operational does not appeal to me personally but to each their own.

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2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think the purpose of the video is to point out that the old adage of "maintaining flying airspeed" is not drilled into pilots. And I think the reason for the marking on the airspeed indicator is to get the pilot to quickly to the correct speed. Anyone who has had an engine event close to the ground will tell you how hard it is to think clearly when you are initially dealing with the "oh crap" reaction. Having a visual aid and not remembering the number is a way to do that.

 

I couldn't agree more about the "oh crap" reaction.  I had an event a few weeks ago where I had to abruptly pull power to idle 3 minutes after takeoff, and it was 100% my glider rope-break training that got me home safe. There's really no time to make any decisions, just time to execute the decisions you've already made. 

A bit of tape on the ASI is a healthy reminder that you decided long ago to keep the speed up even if that means landing short.

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3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think the purpose of the video is to point out that the old adage of "maintaining flying airspeed" is not drilled into pilots. And I think the reason for the marking on the airspeed indicator is to get the pilot to quickly to the correct speed. Anyone who has had an engine event close to the ground will tell you how hard it is to think clearly when you are initially dealing with the "oh crap" reaction. Having a visual aid and not remembering the number is a way to do that.

 

I am going to beat this horse.  You really don't have time to look at the ASI when the fan quits down low.    Nor do I think you should.   Get the nose down and start looking for the best of the worse places to land.   In my case where I flew inside the fence of the airport.  The only time I had to look at the ASI was after a 90 degree turn (had already turned 90 degrees from the runway when the engine sputtered.) and looking at the end of the intersecting runway and realizing I had too much speed and too high and too close to make that runway.  

The tape on the ASI may help if you are up high and lots of time to work out a solution.

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9 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I am going to beat this horse.  You really don't have time to look at the ASI when the fan quits down low.    Nor do I think you should.   Get the nose down and start looking for the best of the worse places to land.   In my case where I flew inside the fence of the airport.  The only time I had to look at the ASI was after a 90 degree turn (had already turned 90 degrees from the runway when the engine sputtered.) and looking at the end of the intersecting runway and realizing I had too much speed and too high and too close to make that runway.  

The tape on the ASI may help if you are up high and lots of time to work out a solution.

I think you are supporting my comment. The most critical factor after an engine failure down low is maintaining flying speed. There is a finite time between engine failure and ground impact. You go too slow or go too fast you are impacting your glide range. Having a visual clue I think helps. 

The best way to show this is to grab some time in a simulator and see how much difference 5 knots could mean one way or another.

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13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think you are supporting my comment. The most critical factor after an engine failure down low is maintaining flying speed. There is a finite time between engine failure and ground impact. You go too slow or go too fast you are impacting your glide range. Having a visual clue I think helps. 

The best way to show this is to grab some time in a simulator and see how much difference 5 knots could mean one way or another.

I think we are in violent agreement.  My point being that you should be able to know what 100 mph feels like and what nose angle down that is.  The finite time is measured in seconds from full power nose up take off configuration to pushing the nose over the top.   I would like to describe the sight picture as about 15 degree nose down but would probably be wrong.  but I know it when I see it cause I practiced it.

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All these Speed numbers are dependent on aircraft loading and angle of bank. Why not invest in an angle of attack indicator and get the exact way to fly the airplane instead of all these approximations with added fudge factors.   Seems like the ROI is pretty great for installing one.  

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1 minute ago, Gary0747 said:

All these Speed numbers are dependent on aircraft loading and angle of bank. Why not invest in an angle of attack indicator and get the exact way to fly the airplane instead of all these approximations with added fudge factors.   Seems like the ROI is pretty great for installing one.  

You do realize you are talking to a bunch of CB's... The price of a piece of tape vs AOA? :lol:

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This line on the airspeed assumes you are looking inside. If you are so out of wack and don’t understand to push the nose down to prevent/break a stall then looking at an instrument inside probably won’t do you much good. Just my opinion from a 4K dual given instructor.

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I don't understand the push-back on this idea.

Should you know your speeds? Sure!

Why do we even have different colors marked on the ASI? Just remove the white arc, the green arc, the yellow, and even little red line, after all, we should all know those speeds, right?

Should we know what it feels like as a stall approaches and push forward to break it? If we hear the stall horn should we instinctively push forward? Absolutely! Yes, if you are staring at the ASI and don't understand that you need to push, you have some other issues...

The idea (at least my understanding from the video) is to remain above stall speed and not approach the stall. Not trying to argue with anyone and their experience flying/instructing (I think just about everyone on the board here has more experience than I do), but there is an ASI inside the plane and in an engine out situation I would make the argument that in addition to looking outside the plane you should be glancing at that ASI to make sure you are maintaining your speed. When I was going through my PPL training and we were practicing engine loss on departure and returning dead stick I can still hear my CFI in my ear repeating over and over "watch your bank, keep the nose down, watch your speed."

If some pilots don't want to add a small piece of tape to the ASI to aid in a quick glance and noticing if the needle is above or below that line then they don't need to. If you haven't watched the entire video I would say don't disparage the idea so quickly. If you have watched the entire video and still think it's a silly idea then don't put a piece of tape on your ASI, but I think discouraging others from doing so does not do anything to improve safety.

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5 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I don't understand the push-back on this idea.

Should you know your speeds? Sure!

Why do we even have different colors marked on the ASI? Just remove the white arc, the green arc, the yellow, and even little red line, after all, we should all know those speeds, right?

Should we know what it feels like as a stall approaches and push forward to break it? If we hear the stall horn should we instinctively push forward? Absolutely! Yes, if you are staring at the ASI and don't understand that you need to push, you have some other issues...

The idea (at least my understanding from the video) is to remain above stall speed and not approach the stall. Not trying to argue with anyone and their experience flying/instructing (I think just about everyone on the board here has more experience than I do), but there is an ASI inside the plane and in an engine out situation I would make the argument that in addition to looking outside the plane you should be glancing at that ASI to make sure you are maintaining your speed. When I was going through my PPL training and we were practicing engine loss on departure and returning dead stick I can still hear my CFI in my ear repeating over and over "watch your bank, keep the nose down, watch your speed."

If some pilots don't want to add a small piece of tape to the ASI to aid in a quick glance and noticing if the needle is above or below that line then they don't need to. If you haven't watched the entire video I would say don't disparage the idea so quickly. If you have watched the entire video and still think it's a silly idea then don't put a piece of tape on your ASI, but I think discouraging others from doing so does not do anything to improve safety.

I like the idea and I plan to install a reference at 70knots.

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3 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

All these Speed numbers are dependent on aircraft loading and angle of bank. Why not invest in an angle of attack indicator and get the exact way to fly the airplane instead of all these approximations with added fudge factors.   Seems like the ROI is pretty great for installing one.  

You know that your stall horn works just like an AOA. If properly set it will give a lot of notice before the wing stops flying. It also works in a bank. Just like an AOA, you are only getting information on the wing it’s installed on.

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16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You know that your stall horn works just like an AOA. If properly set it will give a lot of notice before the wing stops flying. It also works in a bank. Just like an AOA, you are only getting information on the wing it’s installed on.

But you only have it on one side.  If you are banking to the left, the right wing will break long before that horn goes off. (I think)

I saw this video when it came out and looked into doing the sticker thing, then I thought about it - 

 

My C, at 0 flaps at 0 bank stalls at 67MPH.  At 20 bank stalls at 69MPH, and at 40 bank stalls at 78MPH.

I like to "cross the fence" at 80MPH and don't like to see a speed below that during the pattern.

For me, if I'm at 40 degree bank in the pattern, I screwed up something somewhere BUT with my current minimum speed, I should already be ok.  I don't see why I need to put a piece of tape on when I already have a practiced plan that is beyond this theory.

 

And the number one thing to do during an emergency is fly the airplane.  If you aren't looking at your altitude, and speed, you are not properly flying the airplane.

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49 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

But you only have it on one side.  If you are banking to the left, the right wing will break long before that horn goes off. (I think)

I saw this video when it came out and looked into doing the sticker thing, then I thought about it - 

 

My C, at 0 flaps at 0 bank stalls at 67MPH.  At 20 bank stalls at 69MPH, and at 40 bank stalls at 78MPH.

I like to "cross the fence" at 80MPH and don't like to see a speed below that during the pattern.

For me, if I'm at 40 degree bank in the pattern, I screwed up something somewhere BUT with my current minimum speed, I should already be ok.  I don't see why I need to put a piece of tape on when I already have a practiced plan that is beyond this theory.

 

And the number one thing to do during an emergency is fly the airplane.  If you aren't looking at your altitude, and speed, you are not properly flying the airplane.

My post referenced the fact that you only have one wing reporting. Fortunately it’s the one that is typically on the inside of turns made in the pattern.

If you’re crossing the fence at 80MIAS that’s 1.4Vso at max gross weight and probably more like 1.5Vso at your actual landing weight. The extra speed is then magnified by ground effect.  Certainly little danger of stalling prior to landing but that energy has to go somewhere...brake linings or excess runway are the only two options in which the plane stands a chance of being reused.

Edited by Shadrach
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1) Some like to memorize their speeds and performance numbers... it helps to know level, and 30° Of bank, stall speeds...

2) Some like a visual aid taped to the ASI...

3) Some like an AOAi...

4) Some like to keep the ball centered in their turns... instead of buying a second aural AOAi aka stall horn sensor...

5) Some know when their stress level skyrockets...a visual aid is also a memory aid...

6) Some know that when the engine goes silent, their stress level skyrockets... focus and memory can get very fuzzy, extra quickly...

7) Some people actually look inside the cockpit to reference their instruments...  airspeed and altitude at key locations requires seeing an instrument somewhere...

8) some people confuse referencing, with staring... MSers know the difference... if they have read this far... :)

9) Some people use all kinds of memory devices at home, and in the plane...

10) some people pretend their memory isn’t improved with the use of memory devices... :)

A PP summary list of what I think I have read here...

There is clearly various ways to skin this cat... some better than others, depending on who you are, and what you have...

Best regards...

-a-

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Anybody using their stall warning to detect or control angle of attack in a turn is playing with Fire!  It gives you the AOA information too late and provides you nothing about how close you are to the dreaded stall spin.  We lose way to many pilots every year making that base to final turn with stall spin accidents. I wonder how many of them actually heard a stall horn?  We even lost a Mooney test pilot and three others in a base to final stall spin a few years ago in Texas. 

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13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You know that your stall horn works just like an AOA. If properly set it will give a lot of notice before the wing stops flying. It also works in a bank. Just like an AOA, you are only getting information on the wing it’s installed on.

Curious as to how many here check for an audible stall warning during their pre-flight....... every time.

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47 minutes ago, MARZ said:

Curious as to how many here check for an audible stall warning during their pre-flight....... every time.

I do every time. I check the fuel levels and sump the fuel every time as well, even when it has been locked up in my hangar and nobody has had access. Same pre-flight routine every time, skipping steps can and has ended tragically for many a pilot. 

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