Slam dunked into the ILS funnel

[Browncbr1]

I was flying the baron into a class D field, Ceilings were reported 500ovc, tops about 2800’.      I was on nearby Charlie approach control downwind vector at 4000 and given a big inbound turn vector and maintain 2200 until established ILS clearance 5 miles before the FAF.  In anticipation of being slam dunked, I had already put in the approach flaps and really should have dropped the gear too.  Anyway,  I got it down into the soup and established quickly, which was enough to keep me busy trying to slow down.  I was waiting for tower hand off as I leveled off and approached the FAF and realized I was distracted and failed to continue descending down to 1500’ before reaching the FAF.  I’m at the FAF on course but 700’ above the GS.   

What would you do next?

 

 

here’s what I did.   I dropped the gear and continued the approach with rapid descent and captured the glideslope.  It was pretty steep.  Once I was on the glideslope I figured approach forgot about me so I just switched over to tower and got my clearance to land just as I broke out short final.   

Mainly, I just wanted to write this down to help me remember not to get distracted and continue properly to the approach limits once established, but wondering what others think about salvaging an approach like that.  I also want to remind all of us that we should feel empowered to tell ATC “unable” if given something that is no good like that.   

[carusoam]

Great documented challenge, Mr. Brown!

Thanks for sharing the details...

Intercepting a downward slope opens a Pandora like box of higher math... descending at a greater rate than the slope of the ILS...

Some older APs insist on intercepting the GS from below...

My 90s AP (KAP150) makes a big deal out of its ability to intercept from above...

The challenge is to do it without making a mistake...

Glad you are here to describe the details... 

Best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

Thanks for posting. Here's my recommendation for this scenario:

1. Be configured prior to the FAF - I don't teach dropping flaps without the gear - this gets you out of your normal habit pattern and can lead you down the path of a gear-up landing, especially when dealing with the unexpected.

2. Glideslope Intercept is the the lightning bolt on an approach. Since you were not at GS intercept and at the FAF, transition to the LOC, follow the procedure and descend to the MDA. If you are able to capture the GS prior to the VDP, then continue your pre-planned ILS

3. If unable to re-capture the GS and you hit the MDA, continue to missed approach point. If visual the runway prior to the VDP, use that as your descent point. If inside the VDP and prior to the MAP, determine whether you can continue with a safe landing. If not, go missed at the MAP. 

Like you said, if uncomfortable at the FAF with the vectors/restrictions given, break off the approach and get vectored back around.

 

 

[Hank]

14 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

Thanks for posting. Here's my recommendation for this scenario:

1. Be configured prior to the FAF - I don't teach dropping flaps without the gear - this gets you out of your normal habit pattern and can lead you down the path of a gear-up landing, especially when dealing with the unexpected.

2. Glideslope Intercept is the the lightning bolt on an approach. Since you were not at GS intercept and at the FAF, transition to the LOC, follow the procedure and descend to the MDA. If you are able to capture the GS prior to the VDP, then continue your pre-planned ILS

3. If unable to re-capture the GS and you hit the MDA, continue to missed approach point. If visual the runway prior to the VDP, use that as your descent point. If inside the VDP and prior to the MAP, determine whether you can continue with a safe landing. If not, go missed at the MAP. 

Like you said, if uncomfortable at the FAF with the vectors/restrictions given, break off the approach and get vectored back around.

My configuration for FAF is reduced power set and leaned, Takeoff Flaps, Gear Up.

At FAF or 1-1/2 dots above glideslope intercept, dropping the gear starts the descent and brings me right down the glideslope with no power change and no risk of gear up landing. Yes, I got distracted following the old curved GPS approach over the Bay into KECP once and forgot to lower the gear--I could either hold speed above glideslope or hold glideslope at way too high airspeed, so now I know how to correct that.

[HXG]

The situation sounds like it got you a little behind the airplane. I get slowed down early when preparing for a possible slam dunk or tight vector approach in IMC if ATC is not giving me what I want.  As you stated, it’s okay to ask ATC for what you want or say “unable”. 

 For me in the Mooney, it’s Gear down, flaps down at 1/2-1 dot below GS, but I would also already have initial flaps in earlier in the Baron (higher Vfe).  You want to be configured and stabilized by the FAF. At 700 feet above GS over the FAF and 500 overcast, I probably would have gone missed.  

[MB65E]

GA anytime the approach is unstable. Appears you were unstable. What was the Decent rate? I went around last week for sinking 1200fpm   Inside 1000ft Agl. 
-Matt

[midlifeflyer]

With a 1000' ceiling, I would probably salvage the approach, especially if to a familiar airport.

With a 500" ceiling,  no. 

[kpaul]

As noted the goal is to not have it happen, but once you are there....We teach if at any time you  get one dot below or two dots above the glide path you revert to the LOC mins, if you re-capture the GP prior to the VDP then you can continue on the ILS.

[Browncbr1]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. All great input above.   Hopefully keeps others mindful to be assertive in what they accept.    It’s probably fair to say I was complacent with ATC instructions which led me to get behind the ball a bit.   I should have Given more consideration and expectation of how it would play out, because the controller also gave a late turn to the previous aircraft on the same approach and it looked like he had some trouble getting back on the LOC on my screen.   Two days prior, going into and out of that same field, it was like the approach controller didn’t have a radar screen and didn’t know what was going on, then switching over to tower was the same deal..  I thought these guys have radar screens..  he kept asking me where I was...  it didn’t seem normal...  maybe their computers were down or something..

 

  I didn’t say why I decided to continue on reaching the FAF.   In fact, the GS wasn’t alive, so I played it like a LOC to the MVA but the GS came in before the MVA..   my reasoning on the spot for salvaging the approach was that I was stabilized at the FAF, (except for being high) and the MVA was also 500, so if I hadn’t caught the GS by then, maybe I could break out anyway.   I ended up capturing and fully stabilizing on the GS well before then..  Normally, I drop gear before app flaps, but when I get slammed, I put the flaps in first.    It happens fairly often, but this time was the steepest.   Next time, I’ll use “unable” instead.    Descent was as high as 1300fpm immediately after the FAF, as I figured close to double the normal VS should get me back on the GS in one minute. 

 

 

[irishpilot]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. All great input above.   Hopefully keeps others mindful to be assertive in what they accept.    It’s probably fair to say I was complacent with ATC instructions which led me to get behind the ball a bit.  
 

@Browncbr1, thanks for posting and willing to have this discourse on MS. Events like this are perfect to analyze, reflect and learn. Great post!

If you are good with it, I'd like to move this thread to the safety section as this is the discourse we want to encourage for our Mooney Safety Culture.

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod

[Browncbr1]

3 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

 

@Browncbr1, thanks for posting and willing to have this discourse on MS. Events like this are perfect to analyze, reflect and learn. Great post!

If you are good with it, I'd like to move this thread to the safety section as this is the discourse we want to encourage for our Mooney Safety Culture.

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod
 

Sure, go ahead and move it over there. Thanks!

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, kpaul said:

As noted the goal is to not have it happen, but once you are there....We teach if at any time you  get one dot below or two dots above the glide path you revert to the LOC mins, if you re-capture the GP prior to the VDP then you can continue on the ILS.

I wouldn't "revert to the Localizer," but the LOC minims and especially any step-downs would definitely be a consideration in the decision whether to try to recapture (especially since my adventure with a GS needle which came in normally and failed absolutely centered)

Edited October 21, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

52 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Thanks for all the comments everyone. All great input above.   Hopefully keeps others mindful to be assertive in what they accept.    It’s probably fair to say I was complacent with ATC instructions which led me to get behind the ball a bit.   I should have Given more consideration and expectation of how it would play out, because the controller also gave a late turn to the previous aircraft on the same approach and it looked like he had some trouble getting back on the LOC on my screen.   Two days prior, going into and out of that same field, it was like the approach controller didn’t have a radar screen and didn’t know what was going on, then switching over to tower was the same deal..  I thought these guys have radar screens..  he kept asking me where I was...  it didn’t seem normal...  maybe their computers were down or something..

 

  I didn’t say why I decided to continue on reaching the FAF.   In fact, the GS wasn’t alive, so I played it like a LOC to the MVA but the GS came in before the MVA..   my reasoning on the spot for salvaging the approach was that I was stabilized at the FAF, (except for being high) and the MVA was also 500, so if I hadn’t caught the GS by then, maybe I could break out anyway.   I ended up capturing and fully stabilizing on the GS well before then..  Normally, I drop gear before app flaps, but when I get slammed, I put the flaps in first.    It happens fairly often, but this time was the steepest.   Next time, I’ll use “unable” instead.    Descent was as high as 1300fpm immediately after the FAF, as I figured close to double the normal VS should get me back on the GS in one minute. 

 

 

You mean MDA, not MVA, I think.

[Seth]

Good thread and good post.  Thank you for sharing.  I'm amazed the slam dunk and quick nature that sometimes occurs with ATC.  In bigger and faster airplanes it seems everything happens faster.

Glad you were safe.  Smart that you planned to go missed if it didn't work out.

-Seth

[DXB]

Great discussion here - it's nice to see this board serve as place where people can post their IFR mistakes (I've had my share) and get thoughtful and civilized feedback.

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

You mean MDA, not MVA, I think.

Yea, thanks.   And this particular approach didn’t have any steps on the LOC portion after the FAF

[MB65E]

I have learned a lot the last few years about instrument flying. Tons more to to learn. Keeping pressure on ATC by letting them know what YOU want vs them telling you where or when to go down really builds more space for you. I no longer believe an unstable approach is ATCs fault from a slam dunk. I know it happens, and they have their MVAs with each sector. However, I have tried to get out of the back seat and start communicating more. It helps.  
-Matt

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I was flying the baron into a class D field, Ceilings were reported 500ovc, tops about 2800’.      I was on nearby Charlie approach control downwind vector at 4000 and given a big inbound turn vector and maintain 2200 until established ILS clearance 5 miles before the FAF.  In anticipation of being slam dunked, I had already put in the approach flaps and really should have dropped the gear too.  Anyway,  I got it down into the soup and established quickly, which was enough to keep me busy trying to slow down.  I was waiting for tower hand off as I leveled off and approached the FAF and realized I was distracted and failed to continue descending down to 1500’ before reaching the FAF.  I’m at the FAF on course but 700’ above the GS.      

I don't know if I'd call that a "slam dunk" unless your speeds are much faster in a baron.  On the RNAV 21 approach to KSMO, the MVA in the vectoring area is 6000' MSL, and the glideslope intercept is at 3000' MSL.  They'll frequently vector you 2 nm outside the FAF and tell you you're cleared for the approach when established 

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Seth said:

Good thread and good post.  Thank you for sharing.  I'm amazed the slam dunk and quick nature that sometimes occurs with ATC.  In bigger and faster airplanes it seems everything happens faster.

Glad you were safe.  Smart that you planned to go missed if it didn't work out.

-Seth

Sometimes they can be predictable. One is coming into the Spartenburg/Greenville SC area fro the east, crossing south of CLT. The configuration of CLT is a big clue.

Even the ancient MSFS X knows CLT is going to keep you high until clear of the approach/departure path. 

[cbarry]

What if: during the transition from approach control to tower (while you were in a rapid descent to the FAF) someone else had already been cleared and was established  BUT you were not aware it?  I would have contacted approach asked for the handoff to tower or asked to be vectored for another approach.  I’m glad it worked out for you and appreciate you sharing because this is a great example to work through.

[jaylw314]

45 minutes ago, cbarry said:

What if: during the transition from approach control to tower (while you were in a rapid descent to the FAF) someone else had already been cleared and was established  BUT you were not aware it?  I would have contacted approach asked for the handoff to tower or asked to be vectored for another approach.  I’m glad it worked out for you and appreciate you sharing because this is a great example to work through.

Approach should be aware of someone else on an IFR approach, and might know about someone on a VFR approach.  Tower may have absolutely no idea, since the FAF is usually outside of there usual controlled airspace.  If anything, approach is going to have a much better situational awareness than the tower controller, since the tower guy is unlikely to have any radar info at hand.  That may change as ADS-B progresses.

[Jim Peace]

also do the math on the way down....I once tracked a false (high) glide slope into Kona.  Went around and better next time.  With all the moving map tech out there today maybe you dont have to do the math in your head just be sure you are at the FAF altitude published and depicted when crossing......

 

[bradp]

Not stabilized by ~ 1000 AGL or inside the FAF is an automatic go around for me.  Anything heroic to salvage the approach or gives me or pax a pucker factor is a go around.  For me >120 kts and gaining or about 1200 fpm would be indicative of an unstable approach and go around.  Piping up and telling ATC what when / you need is good practice. “Unable” use when appropriate is better practice.  Sounds like you anticipated a slam dunk by dirtying up. 

I haven’t considered converting to a LOC, usually cause I only brief one approach at a time and don’t want to be head down rebriefing intermediate / step down fixes if I need to be on my scan.  

There’s enough stuff to do and that can get screwed up that it takes a lot of discipline to say F-it this isn’t working the way I intended.  It also gives the controller (or trainee) feedback that they need to be doing a better job.  Just be aware of what the MSA/MVA is before accepting vectors off the loc prior to execution of the missed. 

[kpaul]

8 hours ago, bradp said:

Just be aware of what the MSA/MVA is before accepting vectors off the loc prior to execution of the missed. 

MSA is published and available on charts and approach plates.  The MVA is generally only known by the controllers.

[Pete M]

You can pick up a false glide slope above. Try to intercept from below.