Annual service done without consent

[Clparker23]

I own a Mooney and just recently bought a Cessna 140 who was sick and has passed away. the 140 was out of annual, I had it ferried and annual’d at the same place it has been the last 4 years. There was no communication from mechanic other than a day I stopped by after the ferry flight and before the annual began. There was a small squawk list. I got word from another pilot who was having an annual done on his plane, stating his was done and they had started on mine. Again no communication from mechanic. I get more word from a guy who stopped by and saw the mechanic replacing the windows and roof glass. I immediately called the mechanic as to hear he’s just about done changing the glass. (The pilot side window had a hole the size of a silver dollar, so previous pilot could throw out his cigarette!)...my question is the mechanic elected to replace windows and skylights, (not airworthy issues) on his own, never asked, never said a word about it until I called him. How do I go about dealing with services performed without consent?

[RogueOne]

Face palm

[Yetti]

Was it placarded with "no smoking"?

[Clparker23]

It was a 1946 Cessna 140 with an ash tray, previous owner died of stage 4 lung cancer...I’m not 100% sure it was for ashing or not. Just made an assumption. Point is, windows and skylights replaced without authorization. What’s a suggestion on how to handle the initial confrontation of that. It was there to be annual’d and flying not prettying up.


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[RogueOne]

I am going to give you my opinion because you asked for it.  Don’t like it?  DON’T REPLY BACK TO ME because you asked.  I find it difficult to believe that there was ZERO discussion about window installs.  If the guy was my mechanic and he did this I would tell him “I didn’t ask for this installation I am NOT paying for it.  I am not paying for the materials or the labor.  You want the windows?  Take ‘em back out and put mine back in.

If he tries to bill you/puts a lien on your plane go to court.

Again I find it difficult to believe there was ZERO said about the windows PRIOR to his moving forward with the install.  I HIGHLY question your story and would LOVE to have the mechanics input on what happened here.

I have had the same A&P for sixteen years.  He has not and would not EVER do something like this without a verbal.  I actually installed my own windows in his hanger in conjunction with an annual some years ago.

If your story is as you say it is he would make it right or our relationship would be finished.

[Clparker23]

Rogue,
Thanks for your input, the A&P used was the one who had performed the past 4 annuals on the plane with previous owner, it was the first time I’ve used him. Previous owner flee formation with him and they had a long history.

IF there was anything said about windows, it was when when we went over a squawk list the ferry pilot put together on the 20 min flight to the shop. And it was like, “oh the fuel gauge doesn’t work on the right side tank, the air speed indicated a little off, there’s a hole in the pilot side window...which at that time (plane isn’t being worked on yet) I responded as ok, ok, yep I saw that...kinda answers. Then, Two weeks later a buddy tells me they are installing new windows. That had to be ordered, and there’s several options, ie tinted, clear and such...but no communication what so ever.

Thanks again for the input.

[FloridaMan]

This has happened to me with my old boat. I ended up with a $5500 bill on a $2000 estimate  

My IA gives me a list first so I can digest the sticker shock prior to giving authorization. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I have the opposite problem -- my mechanic frequently asks me something along the lines of "I found XYZ is not right, do you want me to fix it? The part is $176 and it will take me an hour."  I reply, "Thanks for finding XYZ but please quit asking and just do what you think needs to be done for small items like this."  But then this is guy I know and respect, and we chat / text several times a week. 

Sorry the mechanic did something to surprise you.  It sounds as if you'd have been happier if you had talked to the mechanic every day or two.   Going without any feedback for a couple of weeks while someone you don't know works for you is likely asking for trouble.  

At least you have nice new plexiglass now. 

[Clparker23]

I had polished the crap out of the plane while waited for it to get into annual, repainted wheel pants and such, I believe the way I’m going to handle this is:

I think there was some assumptions made that as I was “prettying” up the plane and that I would like new glass. I’m going to try and come to an understanding between the both of us for me to pay for the glass, and not the labor. I’m not going to be an ass about it.






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[RLCarter]

Communication works both ways.These types of threads pop up several times a year, negotiations should be in the beginning not the end. 

[philiplane]

If the old glass was cloudy or had crazing, it would not pass annual. Nor would the window with the hole in it. So if you said to annual it, even just make it legal and no more, and the windows weren't legal, I wouldn't be surprised that they got replaced without asking. So maybe he assumed, and you assumed? And here you are. This is the most common problem in the business, is too many assumptions and not enough actual communication. Always better to lay out the expectations before any work begins. 

[chriscalandro]

You think a window with a hole in it is not an airworthiness item?!

[Clparker23]

Chris, airworthy issue, I’d say no when in a 140 It can be full speed ahead with the windows up.

 

 

 

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[gsxrpilot]

I'd chalk it up to your education, pay for and enjoy the new windows, including the labor to install them.

I had a similar situation with my first airplane and a very respected Mooney shop. In the end, I paid, ate the crow, and moved along. I was new to this and didn't know how the game was played. 

Now, two airplanes later and several years into this activity, and I can assure you that the shop and I are 100% on the same page, all the time. You can believe that I can sleep better at night, I'm more comfortable flying my airplane, and no one gets better/quicker service from any shop, than I do. I often get the random call from JD just to say, "remember that question you had, I've been thinking about it, I talked to a few other people, and wanted to run an idea by you..." I guarantee you I spend less for his service than just about anyone else.

Getting to this place with a shop is worth a hell of a lot more than the cost of those windows. It's one thing to negotiate on the price of goods. But when the stakes are as high as they are in this game, you don't want to be negotiating on services. An A&P/AI is a service. And not the service that's waiting on your table at Chili's. Put a smile on your face and pay the man. You can choose not to go back, but don't short the guy who's signing your log book.

I know a couple of Mooney owners who would give their right arm to have a particular shop in Texas do their annual. But they aren't welcome any longer, and for good reason. It's just too difficult to get them to pay the bill. Never mind the excuse, but there's always a "good reason." And so it's just not worth the trouble. Don't be that guy.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

You think a window with a hole in it is not an airworthiness item?!

I’ve got a 3/4” hole in the top/middle of my windscreen where an OAT gauge was removed years ago.  It was filled and sealed.    Been through MSCs and independent IAs.  Nobody said a thing about it.  Even the MSC that didn’t like the generic placards on the instrument panel vs the “authorized” ones from 1968.  

I wouldn’t assume that the window was an airworthiness issue, and even if it was, authorizing an annual INSPECTION doesn’t authorize ANY maintenance/repair except those described in the inspection (oil change, air filter, etc).

[tigers2007]

How much is the total repair bill for the glass work? Are we talking thousands or hundreds?  I wouldn't expect my A&P to ask for clearance to repair low-dollar airworthiness issues but I would definitely expect him or her to call me for any sort of work that would dive into the thousands. An annual is an inspection only. He/she aren't required to replace anything.  See https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/appendix-D_to_part_43

I worked at an auto shop when I was in High School and one of the managers would go ahead and replace parts without the customer's consent. Only about 10% would be inquisitive and confrontational and probably 1% would get a free repair. They made a lot of money doing business that way. They would "size up" the customer when it was dropped off to get a feeling if they could afford any repairs. Since it was a nice area, most people just paid the bill without question. But this was brake work, air filters, etc. that weren't that expensive. 

 

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd chalk it up to your education, pay for and enjoy the new windows, including the labor to install them.

 

“How do I go about dealing with services performed without consent?”

This comes before you have any work done on any machine... for any reason... even if it is a warranty issue...
 

I stopped reading the whole thread after gsxr’s line above...

This is a normal life challenge... nothing to do with plane ownership...

Do you own...

• a house?
• a boat?
• a car?

You had work done.

was there a discussion of what was going to be done, what the costs were going to be?

When you go get an oil change, do you specifically refuse the extra 20point inspection and recommended wiper blades?

If you said I got a quote, here it is... congrats...

If you are asking if this is normal...?

Yes it is for some and not for others...

There isn’t anything lower cost than a C140... update it and move on...

Know that people have C140s because they just want it... it isn’t a daily commute to work machine...

Some people around here have one as a second Plane. A Fun plane...

 

Now you have learned a not so expensive lesson...

 

Wait... there is more...

let’s say you want to stick some of your poor misjudgement back to the mechanic....

wait another minute... you said he knows this plane... for years... isn’t some of his knowledge about the plane going to be of interest to you next week? Next month? Next year...?  
 

Why complain now when you are busy building a lasting relationship with a guy that is capable of taking care of this toy machine?

There are still more lessons coming your way...

 

Did you mention if the work was any good?  Probably was... he’s been taking care of the plane for years...

 

set up the conversation for next year... another annual is going to be right around the corner... what else do you want done? What will you need the next time?

 

Probably would have been better to have that direct one-on-on conversation with the guy you may want help from again...

In aviation, the rules are completely different... there are no consumer protection laws to help the hapless ordinary person...

The only solution is to not be ordinary...

It takes extra effort to own an airplane... there was no high school class covering this...

 

Now you can use the same logic for your next project... water heaters go bad every decade, and often flood the room they are installed in...

Don’t you own a Mooney? How have you not run into this same challenge already?

look the person in the eye, write down all the detail you agree upon...   yes write it down... your memory won’t be good enough a few days or weeks later...

Everybody gets to learn this lesson somewhere along the way...  a house is a tough teacher... the C140, a couple of windows and your done!

PP thoughts on owning machinery in real life... not a therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

@carusoam, @gsxrpilot, part of the OP's issue is work done without authorization, which burns me up. I've had IAs decide to do work that I specifically told him not to do . . . Unpleasant. 

BUT another part of his complaint is that the IA ordered and installed windows without asking if the owner wanted clear, smoked, green tint, etc. This is a whole nother issue, and could lead to me replacing the new windows with the ones I want, and back-charging the wayward shop for parts and labor elsewhere. 

Also, replacing side windows is legal owner maintenance, which I generally don't enjoy paying others to do what I can do myself. But if it's outside my comfort zone, I will do so anyway, but again the OP had no choice. 

A general question:  why is getting ripped off supposed to be a learning experience fornthe victim? It surely doesn't help him to not get ripped off again when he takes his business elsewhere.  ?????

[Yetti]

18 hours ago, Clparker23 said:

It was a 1946 Cessna 140 with an ash tray, previous owner died of stage 4 lung cancer...I’m not 100% sure it was for ashing or not. Just made an assumption. Point is, windows and skylights replaced without authorization. What’s a suggestion on how to handle the initial confrontation of that. It was there to be annual’d and flying not prettying up.


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Sorry I was just trying to inject some regulatory humor into the discussion.  It seemed more fun that contract management.  

[gsxrpilot]

36 minutes ago, Hank said:

A general question:  why is getting ripped off supposed to be a learning experience fornthe victim? It surely doesn't help him to not get ripped off again when he takes his business elsewhere.  ?????

What I learned from my experience was to be very explicit with my communication, ask questions, and verify that there is full and unequivocal understanding between me and the shop before leaving my airplane in their hands. 

We humans read between the lines so well, that we often mistake it for actual text. Obviously there was miscommunication. I'm just saying it's easier for me to take personal responsibility for the miscommunication and learn from it rather than try to enforce different behavior on someone else. I can try to "teach the shop a lesson" but chances are all I'll accomplish is ensuring that shop will never have time for my plane ever again.

In all of this, I'm assuming the shop was not intentionally trying to "rip off" the OP. But rather was following what they assumed were instructions they were given. We don't have the shop's side of the story here. But regardless, if it was miscommunication, the OP should learn to communicate better. If the shop was intentionally trying to sneak one past the customer, then the OP will learn to do better due diligence on the shop before retaining them to do work and also to pay closer attention to the work being done, stop by periodically, chat about the other planes, what's being done, etc. In either situation, the OP is unlikely to affect any change in the shop. But he certainly can and has learned from this experience.

[59Moonster]

19 hours ago, Clparker23 said:

Rogue,
... the A&P used was the one who had performed the past 4 annuals on the plane with previous owner, ...

So why was it okay for the previous owner but not for the new owner?

18 hours ago, philiplane said:

If the old glass was cloudy or had crazing, it would not pass annual. ...  So if you said to annual it, even just make it legal and no more, and the windows weren't legal, I wouldn't be surprised that they got replaced without asking. 

Just trying to make sure I follow this correctly. So you are telling me that by asking them to annual it, that gives them an open book to do what ever they want without communicating that with you first?

[Clparker23]

Thank you guys for the comments. Ive taken something from each of your posts. I agree and disagree with all them to some point. First off plain and simple there was a break down in communication.

I haven’t been contacted yet that it’s complete so I don’t know what the final invoice will be. Windows prob $700, labor $700 so an additional $1400 roughly. If it was $200 I wouldn’t blink and pay the man. I still lean on the side of being the “paying customer” and a good business provides a service rendered. I asked for it to be annual’d. When I have to call about an elected service provided after a fellow pilot seeing it performed, that does not set well with me. I can moan and groan about it, well I am, but I was just curious were some of you guys draw the line.

I get it that there aren’t service providers such as a&p on every corner, and GA is a small community. I will need this guys help again in the near future, I know that. So it becomes a juggling act. The guy has been doing the annuals on this particular plane for 3-4 years, and hadn’t replaced that window then, but low and behold it gets done now.

And just to provide a little more back story, I had my Mooney annual’d by a very well known shop about a month ago, I got the list of actions to approve or disapprove. I elected not to do a few things on the list. When it was finished and final invoice sent, everything on the list was done...roughly $3k worth of extras. So, the 1 time I stop by were the Cessna is being worked on (hadn’t started annual yet, just had squawk list) I tell him about the Mooney annual. That I did not like what had happened there. And then this guy goes and does the same freaking thing. Anyway, I’m just a little frustrated at the moment both with the service provider for not doing something as simple as “ask” and myself for not checking on him.




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[Oldguy]

Okay, so I am a computer guy, and tend to take everything literally, but a couple things have come up in previous threads, and I want opinions on if they apply here.

Many on MS have said an annual inspection is literally just that: an inspection where a list of airworthy items, and others, is provided to the owner for their review and determination of what should be done. Maybe we (owners) and mechanics need to agree up front on what an annual inspection is since we seem to keep revisiting the same issue. Should that have been done here?

Taking a plane to the previous mechanic is fine, but it may create an expectation by the mechanic to handle work on the plane the same way as they did with the prior owner if nothing is discussed about how the new owner wants things done. If the prior owner gave the shop his implied approval to do what needed to be done, and no new directions were given, then, yes, it probably comes down to a solid case of lack of/mis-communication or no new expectations.

[EricJ]

I think this is just more evidence of why owner-assisted annuals are a good idea.   Not everybody can do it due to work, etc., but if you can it makes it a lot easier to avoid this kind of thing.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by EricJ

[RogueOne]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

@carusoam, @gsxrpilot, part of the OP's issue is work done without authorization, which burns me up. I've had IAs decide to do work that I specifically told him not to do . . . Unpleasant. 

BUT another part of his complaint is that the IA ordered and installed windows without asking if the owner wanted clear, smoked, green tint, etc. This is a whole nother issue, and could lead to me replacing the new windows with the ones I want, and back-charging the wayward shop for parts and labor elsewhere. 

Also, replacing side windows is legal owner maintenance, which I generally don't enjoy paying others to do what I can do myself. But if it's outside my comfort zone, I will do so anyway, but again the OP had no choice. 

A general question:  why is getting ripped off supposed to be a learning experience fornthe victim? It surely doesn't help him to not get ripped off again when he takes his business elsewhere.  ?????

Hank:

I am picking up what you are laying down sir.  The two posters (plus Brad) rub me the same way.  Their replies are nuanced for sure.  They are speaking to me and you and basically saying “airplanes are expensive, we have people and the people are paid to keep us safe.  We pay without question”.  NOPE.

I BLAME the original poster for not being clear in his communication to a (new to him service).  Doubling down on being absent as the process began.  I just don’t work that way.  Over communicate is how I roll.  The expectations are clear.  In writing until you develop a relationship.  Your discussion on the windows specifically speaks to type/color/tint/cost and desire (as some actually enjoy participating where they are allowed and can in the process of maintenance and upkeep).

To answer your question by the “three”:  “Why is getting ripped off supposed to be a learning experience for the victim, because the A&P knows best and is only thinking about you.  Just pay the bill.  Don’t be “that guy”, don’t make a fuss, be a team player, go along to get along, chip chip stiff upper lip, (besides we are affluent and money is no object when it comes to our passion).”  

Ya, I’m going a different route, but thanks...