Wheelbarrowing on take off?

[corn_flake]

I just got back from the field today trying to perfect my landing. During the take-off roll, I notice the airplane would become light on one main wheel if I don't rotate past 70 mph. It doesn't happen every time. But, when it does, it is very unnerving where the weight of the aircraft shifts from one of the main to the nose wheel and the other main wheel. You can think of it as if the aircraft is now riding on one main and one nose wheel. Reacting to this unusual situation, I firmly pull on the yoke and the aircraft rotates without any issues. Since I didn't feel the main wheel contacting the ground again, I can only assume both main wheels are probably still in contact with the ground. It is only a matter of weight shifting.  

The first couple of times this happens, I thought maybe it was caused by wind gust from the side and the rear of the aircraft. Since this morning was perfectly calm, I start thinking my trim may not have set correctly. This is a 69 M20E, and I set the trim to "take-off" mark and flap set to "take-off" mark as well.  

Has anyone experienced this issue?    

 

[takair]

Yes.  I start to add back pressure earlier so that it is almost a constant increase until rotation speed.  Try adding back pressure at 60 such that you rotate by 70.  Of course, results vary with weight and CG...so adjust as needed....

[gsxrpilot]

Yes, I'm familiar with this as well. I fly a 252 which is a little nose heavy than other mid-bodies and certainly the short bodies. I'm also heavy myself, so when it's just me, or me and another front seater with nothing in the back... (my back seats are most often left in the hangar), I get this same effect.

I can either use more up trim on takeoff, and then roll the trim back out as I break ground. Or set the trim to the takeoff mark and use constant back pressure to pull the nose off.

[Immelman]

Go get an instructor and a couple hours in a taildragger, pronto.

Failing that, practice soft-field technique and use it as a normal technique. Don't worry about rotation speed, you're not in a transport jet. Get the nose off the ground, relax the back pressure, and let it fly off when its ready (dont yank it off).. No its not OK to wheel barrow.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Immelman

[Guitarmaster]

Stop picking your rotation speed and give the airplane what it wants... Air under the wings!

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[MBDiagMan]

Could a brake be dragging?  I’m still a bit of a Mooney rookie, but haven’t had any takeoff problems except when going from the C to the F I found myself having to pull on the yoke like it was a B17 to get it airborne at a reasonable speed, but a little extra nose up trim and just getting used to it made it a non event.  My problems have all been landing not takeoff.  It actually surprises me to hear of take off problems.  My thinking is if I can do it without issue it MUST be easy.

All that said, I am indeed getting comfortable with the F now.

[StevenL757]

47 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

Stop picking your rotation speed and give the airplane what it wants... Air under the wings!
 

Exactly.  The airplane will tell you when she wants to fly.  In the flare, she will also tell you clearly when she doesn't want to fly any more.  Listen to her.

[Yetti]

No reason to firmly yank a Mooney.   Thumb and forefinger for most everything.   Trim is your friend.   You are the pilot.   Fly the plane.

[Hank]

Whenever my CG is forward, I set the trim a little higher, at the top of the rather wide Takeoff mark.

I also follow the advice here in my Owners Manual. It's not so much "yank the plane off the runway" as it is "relax some of your pull as the plane breaks free":

Your E likely has a similar paragraph to my C, the biggest difference being your fuel injection system gives you 20 more ponies.

Rotation speed will also vary with takeoff weight; solo with half tanks, it will happily fly at a speed it will barely rock nose high when loaded to gross. Don't try to hold it on the runway when it's ready to fly!

Edited October 11, 2019 by Hank

[carusoam]

wheel barrowing occurs after T/O speed has been achieved...

at FT... and...

At 65 indicated... your Mooney is flying, in ground effect...

If the nose is still attached to the ground... why are you waiting?  

What are you waiting for?

being on the ground at 70 indicated and FT... this moves into the experimental category...

Typically, once you reach flying speed... you want to leave the runway... and get away from it before something happens... like gusts and cross winds...

If for some reason you want to accelerate before climbing out... that is why they have trained you to accelerate in ground effect...
 

Going fast on the ground... expect loss of directional control to become more prevalent... especially if the nose gear components are worn... the eight second ride won’t last eight seconds at 70 indicated...

 

Maybe this is related to primary flight training... where a C152 will fly off the runway when it reaches flying speed...

The landing gear of the C152 is placed closer to the Cg, and it works really well... the Mooney is not set up to be a trainer and will stay on the ground much too long...

So... review the trim procedure and mechanism... fly the plane like the procedure says...  adjust flaps and trim accordingly... if you decide not to use flaps, the corresponding trim will be different as well...

For comparison, have you ever taxied a C152 with the nose wheel in the air? The Cg and some throttle will allow for it...

Don’t let the plane do the flying...

that was fun... 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

Pull the nose lighty off the ground before the plane is ready to take off. It will start to fly when its ready. However once you get off the ground, stay low for 5 seconds since youre in ground effect and the plane might not be ready to climb. Another way of solving this problem in no flap takeoffs. I prefer them personally, unless im in a sub 2500ft strip.

[Guest]

I would have the trim rigging checked first.

Clarence

[midlifeflyer]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:31 PM, Guitarmaster said:

Stop picking your rotation speed and give the airplane what it wants... Air under the wings!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

This! 
I have seen this phenomenon in different makes and models. Force it to stay on the ground when the airplane is ready to fly and it can happen.

Think of rotation speed as a loose recommendation, not as a fixed target.

Edited October 12, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[N201MKTurbo]

I also prefer no flap takeoffs unless short or soft field. I trim for climb out (like Hank shows above). I apply a little back pressure during the roll and it just flys off when it wants to. After it lifts off I relax the back pressure and let it accelerate in ground effects until it has climb speed and then just let it climb. 

Of course you are actively flying it through all of this, but it takes very little pressure if you know where to set the trim.

Think of the takeoff trim indication as a reference mark, not an absolute requirement. You will learn from experience where to set the trim for takeoff depending on loading, conditions and configuration.

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW,

You can fly a Mooney in any configuration at any power setting and any trim setting with normal human strength. Sometimes you have to push and pull pretty hard, but it can be done. You can take off with the trim set anywhere from full nose up to full nose down. 

If you ever find yourself in this situation DO NOT LET THE YOKE SLIP OUT OF YOUR HAND! It could kill you.

Of course your first reaction should be to abort the takeoff.

Edited October 11, 2019 by N201MKTurbo

[DAVIDWH]

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Posted 26 minutes ago

I also prefer no flap takeoffs unless short or soft field. I trim for climb out (like Hank shows above).

I think no flap takeoffs  in short and mid bodies ok, however,  if applied in the long bodies, there is a propensity to drag the tail. Don't ask me how I know....

Not applicable here, but years ago I had a prop governor fail during takeoff in a twin. Just to give you an idea what side yaw is all about.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, DAVIDWH said:

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Posted 26 minutes ago

I also prefer no flap takeoffs unless short or soft field. I trim for climb out (like Hank shows above).

I think no flap takeoffs  in short and mid bodies ok, however,  if applied in the long bodies, there is a propensity to drag the tail. Don't ask me how I know....

Not applicable here, but years ago I had a prop governor fail during takeoff in a twin. Just to give you an idea what side yaw is all about.

I wonder if they take that into account when figuring the blue line?

Did it fail too fast or too slow? It seems like it would be less adverse effect than a complete engine failure.

I have very little experience in long bodies. When I do a no flap takeoff, I don't rotate much at all, just a little back pressure to keep it from wheelbarrowing. How did you manage to drag the tail? Were you running out of runway? It seems like doing a soft field takeoff would be where you would drag the tail.

Edited October 11, 2019 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

So, My boss has an B36TC. I ride/fly it fairly often. About half the time we have one or two people in back. When we have people in back I tell him to set the trim a bit nose down from the take off mark, But NO, he always sets it to the takeoff position. On every takeoff the nose jumps skyward and he has to heroically push it down. I don't get it.... Oh well, he's the boss.

[Prior owner]

9 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I would have the trim rigging checked first.

Clarence

Yep. My trim was way off. I had some down elevator when stabilizer was set at zero degrees... I didn't fly it like that, but a few owners before me flew a few hundred hours on it like that. The last owner complained of lack of nose up trim on approach. Properly rigged now, it will fly hands off on final approach when trim is set.

hands

[Hank]

@PilotCoyote, you should be able to trim your plane to fly hands-off in all configurations. Naturally any power change or attitude change will require trim adjustment. Left hand on yoke, right hand on trim wheel!

[Prior owner]

54 minutes ago, Hank said:

@PilotCoyote, you should be able to trim your plane to fly hands-off in all configurations. Naturally any power change or attitude change will require trim adjustment. Left hand on yoke, right hand on trim wheel!

Agreed. I meant to say that my rigging was wrong!

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, PilotCoyote said:

Agreed. I meant to say that my rigging was wrong!

 

After my new IA did my annual this year, I went to see Joey Cole to have his "work" fixed.    The elevator is supposed to swing 20° up and down, +/- 2°; mine went just 15° up, and down went beyond the last mark on the travel board (which is at 25°).   

Some people should not work on Mooneys!!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

After my new IA did my annual this year, I went to see Joey Cole to have his "work" fixed.    The elevator is supposed to swing 20° up and down, +/- 2°; mine went just 15° up, and down went beyond the last mark on the travel board (which is at 25°).   

Some people should not work on Mooneys!!

By reducing the up travel he was just making sure you wouldn’t stall it.  Safety first!

Clarence

[Hank]

34 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

By reducing the up travel he was just making sure you wouldn’t stall it.  Safety first!

Joey Cole asked if my takeoff to visit him was "interesting" with so little Up Elevator available.

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, My boss has an B36TC. I ride/fly it fairly often. About half the time we have one or two people in back. When we have people in back I tell him to set the trim a bit nose down from the take off mark, But NO, he always sets it to the takeoff position. On every takeoff the nose jumps skyward and he has to heroically push it down. I don't get it.... Oh well, he's the boss.

It's called flying with blinders.