xavierde Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 So I have this 252 which needs some love and I am wondering how far I can go to make it a great plane without looking at a large loss if/when selling. I'm obviously happy not to recoup my investment in a new panel when selling as this would improve my safety and overall experience flying this Mooney but I don't want to go too crazy and be in for a large loss e.g. $100k. I've been reading about the makeover of some Mooneys here e.g. 205J... and it's very tempting but could also be a very bad idea. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 I would say maximum for 252 with fancy panel, nice interior, and engine less than 500 hours is $225,000. Note: I have no real expertise, just a guess based on planes available today. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Not an expert on 252s but to answer your question folks probably need a few more particulars about your plane and what you plan to do to upgrade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 X, The ways to make sense of the high spend... Does it improve... speed efficiency safety Will it protect what you have invested in... hangar cover paint can you get what you want and spread The expenses out over a decade? Forever planes get different financial planning If you are using the new stuff every flight a few times per week When spending the aviation budget, always keep in mind what can loom over the horizon... engine oh interior needs exterior needs prop Predicting the future of airplane sales is near impossible... Value Price Added technology to improve the salability... economy price of fuel In the end... You will be tossing out what used to be the best... Replacing it with today’s best... it becomes yesterday’s best quickly... The cost to install/remove all this stuff is sunk immediately... Some of these costs are more real depending on what account pays for all of this... Find the price guide written by Jimmy at all American... this will give a feel for how much the plane is worth and how much gets lost from the installed price to the sales value... How crazy can you go? Too crazy insure everything properly expect to spend the most expect to get the least in return As investments go... planes are in the category of minimizing losses just be careful when comparing what others do and what is right for you... No two MSers share the same financial philosophy... Other than all that negativity... Go for it! PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Investing in upgrades also adds value but not dollar for dollar, you have fly off some of the investment to reduce the hit if/when you sell. Only you can really answer your question, and keep in mind the reserve should the engine heads south, nothing worse than setting in your plane with all you "Glass" powered up but your motor is torn down and you can't swing the repairs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishpilot Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 I think if you run straight numbers, the upgrade costs will add up pretty quickly. However, if you keep the plane another 10 years, the costs become less relevant because of the usage. If you plan to sell in the next few years, the upgrade costs become more of a factor. What do you have in mind for your plane's upgrades?Fly Safe,Safety Forum Mod 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierde Posted October 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 My engine is at 1450 SNEW so I've already accounted for that and will pull the trigger when I need to. On the avionics, I need to get ADS-B but I'm thinking about re-doing the whole panel (G3X + EIS + new GPS). On the purely aesthetic side, paint is showing it's age and the interior needs a touch up (at least the panels and potentially the seats). Plane is currently hangared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, xavierde said: My engine is at 1450 SNEW so I've already accounted for that and will pull the trigger when I need to. On the avionics, I need to get ADS-B but I'm thinking about re-doing the whole panel (G3X + EIS + new GPS). On the purely aesthetic side, paint is showing it's age and the interior needs a touch up (at least the panels and potentially the seats). Plane is currently hangared. When you are doing the panel, pull the interior, glare shield and seats and send everything off to Aero Comfort in San Antonio (or somewhere similar). You will get back a box of redone pieces which will make the interior of your plane look new. You can get a price list from them, and it will give you several choices of levels from which to choose concerning whether you want cloth, vinyl, leather, etc. Or you can do this when you have it painted (and put in new glass all around?). Either way, if you are willing to do some of the removal and re-installation, you could save a few AMUs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodon Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, xavierde said: So I have this 252 which needs some love and I am wondering how far I can go to make it a great plane without looking at a large loss if/when selling. I'm obviously happy not to recoup my investment in a new panel when selling as this would improve my safety and overall experience flying this Mooney but I don't want to go too crazy and be in for a large loss e.g. $100k. I've been reading about the makeover of some Mooneys here e.g. 205J... and it's very tempting but could also be a very bad idea. Any thoughts? Hi Xavierde I'm upgrading my 252 at present. Traded the GNS480 in for a GTN750, SL30 and KR87ADF. Everything else will be remote: transponder, remote audio, remote DME, remote stormscope. Also adding an EDM900 to get rid of the factory gauges and make space for displays. Still very much deciding on displays - 2 G5's, G600, G500Txi, G3x etc. I need to keep the KFC150 autopilot for now, it's working just fine. With some GPSS and good vertical guidance, it will be better, or am I kidding myself? Aerodon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierde Posted October 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 That's basically my current set-up GNS480 with GTX33 remote, GMA 340. I have a KAP 150 with pre-select and GPSS (Icarius). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
231LV Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Oldguy said: When you are doing the panel, pull the interior, glare shield and seats and send everything off to Aero Comfort in San Antonio (or somewhere similar). You will get back a box of redone pieces which will make the interior of your plane look new. You can get a price list from them, and it will give you several choices of levels from which to choose concerning whether you want cloth, vinyl, leather, etc. Or you can do this when you have it painted (and put in new glass all around?). Either way, if you are willing to do some of the removal and re-installation, you could save a few AMUs. My 231 is heading to Hector at Aero Comfort early next month for the Executive interior....plan on almost $20k for that and close to that for a new paint job....upgraded panel? The sky is the limit....glass is really, really expensive and quickly becomes yesterday's "old" technology. You can easily drop $100k into your plane and have a beauty for years to come but don't plan on recouping most of that if a flip is in the near future.....planes are "toys" and should never be confused with an investment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Each of us have a different mindset on capital improvements on there airplanes. I’m of the mindset that my plane is for my personal use and enjoyment just like a membership in an exclusive country club where you may put up $250,000 with nothing more than the ability to play golf and social at another yearly rate. I’ve had three new or almost new Mooney’s, kept them all maintained by MSC’s and did many capital improvements for my flying pleasure, therefore I don’t keep a tab on my cost and expenses if and when I can’t afford the plane or country club I’ll pack it up otherwise I don’t keep tabs just write checks. Being a CPA I don’t need anymore financial analysis in my life. Do what you can afford and enjoy the ride. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, Danb said: ...I don’t need anymore financial analysis in my life. ^^^^This. I have noticed we typically talk about two types of planes in MS: "forever planes" and "the plane I am flying until I sell it for the next one". Forever planes do not get a financial analysis, and the spending on them is not much of a concern, other than affording it. The others should not get one, otherwise they might never be bought. All of our planes hold value fairly well until they don't, so I almost feel it really doesn't matter what you put into them. It is somewhat of a sunk cost. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Well said John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 I can only offer a datapoint. My 252 being my forever airplane since after all it really is the best airplane ever made by Mooney if efficiency and capability are your priorities; (second only to a Acclaim IMO where efficiency isn't quite a priority). But I've upgraded it to the Encore, have the Aero Comfort interior and a 100K glass panel (G500, with GAD43e, dual GTN's, GTX345, ESI-500 glass backup, EDM-900 w/ CIES fuel senders, Guardian CO monitor and redundant EI RPM & MAP gauges). The only thing left from the factory is the KFC-150 which I am in holding mode on what direction to go. And this is my second major panel upgrade, prior was dual GNS GPS's with GMX200. of course I am not planning on selling, but enjoying it at least another 10+ years. I personally wouldn't finance a plane or upgrades but you can't take it with you! It also helps a lot having a wife that is also a pilot. If its your forever plane, enjoy whatever you can afford. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierde Posted October 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) I agree and wouldn't finance anything plane related as well but that's a personal preference. My interrogation comes from the fact that I really want to upgrade the plane to make it better, specifically avionics-wise but don't want to end up loosing $80-100k or so on a sale in a few years (if I want to get a twin when my mission changes e.g. extending the family). So I'm wondering whether to upgrade very selectively and at limited cost or if I should just go full-speed thinking I'd end up finding a buyer looking for an already upgraded "forever plane", if/when the time to sell comes. Edited October 9, 2019 by xavierde Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishpilot Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 Hoping to find a buyer that prioritizes the upgrades as much as you do is possible. However, you will be limiting your demographic. Plane sales are tricky. Price too low and you lose out $. Price too high and the plane will sit on the market. Serious buyers who have time on their side will watch the plane market and see it go stale. From what you've written, I'd recommend you do selective upgrades that will retain high resale value. You can gain significant capability with used avionics that will hold resale. For example, you do a 530W/430W with a GTX 345, paired to an iPad with Foreflight you will have ADS-B, LPV, XM WX and ADS-B wx, etc. You could also go other routes that will give similar capes. Or you can go newer with 750/650, etc. Lots of choices of you step away from the latest avionics.Fly Safe,Safety Forum Mod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 For the best ROI I’d upgrade/trade the 33 transponder for a 33es. The only other change would be a new left panel, 10 inch g3x w/ EIS, and a gdl 50r. Everything else not removed would remain the same if it was my plane and I wanted to keep the investment reasonable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 @ArtVandelay is about right here. The ceiling for a 252 seems to be about $225K. To fetch that it would need to be upgraded to an Encore and have a modern panel. But that's what they'll fetch today. As @kortopates said, the 252 might be the best model Mooney ever made according to a lot of people. And since they're not making any more of them. And there is nothing else on the market that compares, the values of good, Encore upgraded 252 will continue to go up. The one I have is likely my forever airplane and I'm spending on it accordingly. Someday I hope to bring it back to factory new condition with an all glass panel. I will say that paint and interior are the very last things on my list to upgrade. First of all, once you've done the paint and interior you don't want to be taking it apart for more upgrades. So do that last. They also bring the least value on the resale market. If a buyer is going to be asked to pay for a paint job, they might like to pick out the colors. So for me, somewhere in the next few years, when there is nothing left to improve, fix, upgrade, on my 252, it will get an Aerocomfort interior from Hector and a new paint job from Hawk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 Ouch... The wheels just fell off the upgrade train... When you look in the back, and don’t know if there will be enough seats for everybody.... https://nj1015.com/it-costs-more-than-250k-to-raise-a-child-in-nj-not-including-pregnancy/ Al Mooney decided somewhere along the way... Two kids is the limit... that’s a 500amu expense... in NJ. If you go with three... god bless you, 750amu + a six seat plane... Now go convince your finance administrator that two kids is great idea.... If you are successful with that conversation... we can fire up the upgrade train again! Take a look around at the fancy panels around here... somebody has to sign off on all that dough... often, the right seater is a pilot too, or really enjoys being in the right seat... If your FA never sits in the right seat, there is an equal amount of upgrade dough getting spent somewhere else... picture feeding horses every day.... PP thoughts only, not the finance guy, or the family planning guy... I’m still trying to figure out if an O can be a forever plane... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, carusoam said: Ouch... The wheels just fell off the upgrade train... When you look in the back, and don’t know if there will be enough seats for everybody.... https://nj1015.com/it-costs-more-than-250k-to-raise-a-child-in-nj-not-including-pregnancy/ Al Mooney decided somewhere along the way... Two kids is the limit... that’s a 500amu expense... in NJ. If you go with three... god bless you, 750amu + a six seat plane... Now go convince your finance administrator that two kids is great idea.... If you are successful with that conversation... we can fire up the upgrade train again! Take a look around at the fancy panels around here... somebody has to sign off on all that dough... often, the right seater is a pilot too, or really enjoys being in the right seat... If your FA never sits in the right seat, there is an equal amount of upgrade dough getting spent somewhere else... picture feeding horses every day.... PP thoughts only, not the finance guy, or the family planning guy... I’m still trying to figure out if an O can be a forever plane... Best regards, -a- And even more in California! But one way around this issue and keeping your max gross weight down is using the dog substitute alternative to children. Your dog, although still important family member that still needs feeding and expensive medical bills from time to time, doesn't require that costly college saving fund, nor the never ending unexpected funds for transportation, clothes etc leaving over a lot of funds to go to toys like your Mooney mistress. And they are so appreciative everytime you take them somewhere in your Mooney! Just say'in... Edited October 10, 2019 by kortopates 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, kortopates said: And even more in California! But one way around this issue and keeping your max gross weight down is using the dog substitute alternative to children. Your dog, although still important family member that you still needs feeding and expensive medical bills from time to time, doesn't require that costly college saving fund, nor the never ending unexpected funds for transportation, clothes etc leaving over a lot of funds to go to toys like your Mooney mistress. And they are so appreciative everytime you take them somewhere in your Mooney! Just say'in... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 that is both a bad ass and big ass dog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 6 hours ago, carusoam said: Ouch... The wheels just fell off the upgrade train... When you look in the back, and don’t know if there will be enough seats for everybody.... https://nj1015.com/it-costs-more-than-250k-to-raise-a-child-in-nj-not-including-pregnancy/ Al Mooney decided somewhere along the way... Two kids is the limit... that’s a 500amu expense... in NJ. If you go with three... god bless you, 750amu + a six seat plane... Now go convince your finance administrator that two kids is great idea.... If you are successful with that conversation... we can fire up the upgrade train again! Take a look around at the fancy panels around here... somebody has to sign off on all that dough... often, the right seater is a pilot too, or really enjoys being in the right seat... If your FA never sits in the right seat, there is an equal amount of upgrade dough getting spent somewhere else... picture feeding horses every day.... PP thoughts only, not the finance guy, or the family planning guy... I’m still trying to figure out if an O can be a forever plane... Best regards, -a- Oh you had to do it - price the kids. We have three beautiful boys. I won’t say expensive because.... well you’ve seen me coming through your town college shopping so you know that 250k price tag is a gross low ball estimate. and well worth it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 Jeez college may be over $250,000 let alone silly stuff like food and shelter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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