ilovecornfields Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but Savvy prebuy can help you sort through the logbooks for free and if you decide to go through with it can help you navigate the prebuy. As far as the bird in Stockton, might be worth it to call Top Gun and see if they’re willing to eyeball it for you and go ahead with the prebuy if it looks good. They’re on the field already and are an excellent Mooney Service Center so should be a lot cheaper than having to fly it somewhere else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 OP didn't flunk anything. Sounds like he got an "A" for not buying a junk airplane. That does come with a caveat. Some mechanics have unreasonably high expectations for aircraft. I've met a couple who felt that "airworthy" basically meant new. I recall one who said my aircraft would need $7K worth of work to be airworthy. It had just come out of annual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustinNwind Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 9 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but Savvy prebuy can help you sort through the logbooks for free and if you decide to go through with it can help you navigate the prebuy. As far as the bird in Stockton, might be worth it to call Top Gun and see if they’re willing to eyeball it for you and go ahead with the prebuy if it looks good. They’re on the field already and are an excellent Mooney Service Center so should be a lot cheaper than having to fly it somewhere else. Top Gun is amazing and worth their weight in gold to pay a mechanic a couple of hours to go over and look at it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 hours ago, steingar said: I recall one who said my aircraft would need $7K worth of work to be airworthy. It had just come out of annual. Those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 8 hours ago, steingar said: OP didn't flunk anything. Sounds like he got an "A" for not buying a junk airplane. That does come with a caveat. Some mechanics have unreasonably high expectations for aircraft. I've met a couple who felt that "airworthy" basically meant new. I recall one who said my aircraft would need $7K worth of work to be airworthy. It had just come out of annual. The challenge is meshing expectations of the buyer and the maintainer who is conducting the PPI and avoiding Paul’s list. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 When I had the PPI on my Encore I asked the shop to concentrate on the big ticket items. Engine, Prop, Airframe, corrosion on the main spar, etc. I didn't care about items such as a burned out cabin light bulb. That said, there is a lot they didn't do. I asked them to pull the engine monitor data and send it to me. It was like they never heard of an engine monitor or doing that. They didn't check software versions in the GNS530 (granted, low dollar item) which caused me a big surprise when I didn't get vertical guidance on my very first approach in actual IMC on the way home. They missed that the O2 valve cable was broken and that the O2 system had several leaks, and that the O2 tank was empty. They didn't catch that the oil temp gauge was flaky. They didn't catch that one of the fuel tank gauges only went up to a max of 3/4 full no matter how much fuel was in the tank. These are all things I discovered on the trip home. But these are all relatively minor glitches and many were addressed when I had my panel re-done which was planned anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkarch Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 12:39 PM, Im_an_FNG said: So I took my first choice Mooney to pre-buy. The mechanic found something wrong with literally everything on the bird. I wasn't able to see the airplane before the pre-buy (shame on me), but it basically ended up being one big project airplane (despite being pitched as pristine). So I'm back to square one, trying to figure out how to spot these lemons before I waste $1k [save $40k] on a prebuy. All that to say...let's hear some opinions about this bird https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/98544505/1967-mooney-m20f-exec-21 ...it's local to me so I could take a look at it before making any committments. 722 SMOH in 2005: Bad Cam..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkarch Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 22 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but Savvy prebuy can help you sort through the logbooks for free and if you decide to go through with it can help you navigate the prebuy. As far as the bird in Stockton, might be worth it to call Top Gun and see if they’re willing to eyeball it for you and go ahead with the prebuy if it looks good. They’re on the field already and are an excellent Mooney Service Center so should be a lot cheaper than having to fly it somewhere else. Top Gun will give you a 10k estimate on a bird that's in good condition to start! That's what mine was when I bought the plane. I put 5k into it and dabbled away at the rest over 5 years. Until the Bad Cam eventually showed its ugly lobe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_an_FNG Posted October 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 11 hours ago, jkarch said: 722 SMOH in 2005: Bad Cam..... What makes you say that? Personal experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkarch Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: What makes you say that? Personal experience? Yup, just went through this. 1200 SMOH in 2005, bad Cam. I'll be posting my story soon. I've been off line 4 months. If the plane has only flown like 700 hours since then, run, don't walk away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueOne Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, jkarch said: Yup, just went through this. 1200 SMOH in 2005, bad Cam. I'll be posting my story soon. I've been off line 4 months. If the plane has only flown like 700 hours since then, run, don't walk away... Wow. One datapoint and run don’t walk from a 2005 overhaul. Whatever. My dog went by a culvert and something scared him. He was afraid of EVERY culvert after that... It is YOUR story Karch. Doesn’t mean it is “every similar planes story”. Every airframe has an ownership experience story. I will just say thanks for nothing on your blanket wisdom. YMMV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 Don't go into panic mode for a 722 SMOH in 14 years! I bought my Mooney M20E back in 2010, it had around 1000SNEW on a 1976 engine! 722hrs over a 14yrs period, will indicate an average of 51hrs/yr, but look at the logs, it could have been flown intensively for the first few years, then almost nothing in the last ten! When I bought mine, I didn't expect too much from this engine and had the price lowered accordingly, but it gave me 400hrs before I had to overhaul it this year. Looking at the data, during the Pre-buy, I would investigate why the #3 cylinder is so low, compared to others, and check for metal in the oil. If anything is wrong, you can always negotiate a percentage of the engine repair or price it as a run down engine, depending on the outcome. Panel is loaded, but don't let that blind you from looking at the other stuff! And, trust me on this one, make sure you do check for any corrosion, even if it was treated in the past, that can become a costly proposition! Good luck in your search! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscalandro Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 11 hours ago, jkarch said: Yup, just went through this. 1200 SMOH in 2005, bad Cam. I'll be posting my story soon. I've been off line 4 months. If the plane has only flown like 700 hours since then, run, don't walk away... Again, if the purchasers that came here listened to this advice for literally almost every airplane that’s posted here there wouldn’t be anything flying that was over 5 years old... the odds of the cam being bad are just as good as it being good. You’re bad can doesn’t mean all cams with low time are bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corn_flake Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 @Im_an_FNG Did you call the number I gave you for the Mooney that is literally 5 minutes away from you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 Mine flew 10 hours a year for the 6 years before I owned it. Nothing wrong with it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lithium366 Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 23 hours ago, jkarch said: Yup, just went through this. 1200 SMOH in 2005, bad Cam. I'll be posting my story soon. I've been off line 4 months. If the plane has only flown like 700 hours since then, run, don't walk away... Does the fact that airplane is in SoCal dry climate change cam diagnosis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscalandro Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 58 minutes ago, lithium366 said: Does the fact that airplane is in SoCal dry climate change cam diagnosis? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB4 Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 3:50 PM, chan65 said: IMHO 1,000 was well spent if you avoided big problems , The 10’s of thousands upon thousands you saved by not inking the deal—money well spent. Thinking of it as an insurance policy against buying a lemon helps ease the burden. Ask if they will email you the logs and engine analysis reports for examination. I think you should be able to get an A&P to give cursory review for 2 hours labor. If logs look good only then move to pre-buy. Another MSers had a pre-buy done only to find automotive hoses were used after the purchase. Be thorough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 6:17 PM, Im_an_FNG said: Does anyone in the Socal area want to fly up to Stockton to look at this Mooney? I'm in Tehachapi and would gladly coordinate and pay for your fuel/operating costs/burgers/beers. I’m going to Top Gun Wed. If you’re free, send me an PM and we can get you up there to see the plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lithium366 Posted October 5, 2019 Report Share Posted October 5, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 6:17 PM, Im_an_FNG said: Does anyone in the Socal area want to fly up to Stockton to look at this Mooney? I'm in Tehachapi and would gladly coordinate and pay for your fuel/operating costs/burgers/beers. I will be in Stockton tomorrow morning. I am new to the ownership but I can look and tell you if it is shiny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted October 5, 2019 Report Share Posted October 5, 2019 If your talking about a red 20F at Wolf Aviation, I took a look at it not long ago. Not bad, but I thought a bit over priced. Paint was pretty oxidized, but if I remember correctly nothing a good buffing wouldn't. take care of. Nice panel. I didn't like the color, so that's about as far as I got with it. Ended up purchasing a 1965 M20E in Shafter, $43K, 3500TT, 1021 SMOH. Fresh annual, flown regularly, but pretty much the 65 stock Mooney panel In the Avionics shop now, new pilots side metal panel. dual G5's, GNX 375, removing old A/P for preparations of one day something reasonable can be found to replace it....... After doing all that, it's going to be in the price range of that F, so maybe not too overpriced after all! Good luck on your search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpressJetter Posted October 5, 2019 Report Share Posted October 5, 2019 Just now, oldguyscanfly said: If your talking about a red 20F at Wolf Aviation, I took a look at it not long ago. Not bad, but I thought a bit over priced. Paint was pretty oxidized, but if I remember correctly nothing a good buffing wouldn't. take care of. Nice panel. I didn't like the color, so that's about as far as I got with it. Ended up purchasing a 1965 M20E in Shafter, $43K, 3500TT, 1021 SMOH. Fresh annual, flown regularly, but pretty much the 65 stock Mooney panel In the Avionics shop now, new pilots side metal panel. dual G5's, GNX 375, removing old A/P for preparations of one day something reasonable can be found to replace it....... After doing all that, it's going to be in the price range of that F, so maybe not too overpriced after all! Good luck on your search! Do you mind saying how much this work is costing? I'm trying to figure out of the route u did is they way I want to go with my future purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted October 5, 2019 Report Share Posted October 5, 2019 Around $27K, above mentioned work plus installing a new ELT. Having done at Megahertz in Bakersfield. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkarch Posted October 6, 2019 Report Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) On 10/3/2019 at 11:18 AM, RogueOne said: Wow. One datapoint and run don’t walk from a 2005 overhaul. Whatever. My dog went by a culvert and something scared him. He was afraid of EVERY culvert after that... It is YOUR story Karch. Doesn’t mean it is “every similar planes story”. Every airframe has an ownership experience story. I will just say thanks for nothing on your blanket wisdom. YMMV. Except my plane's story also started in Stockton California. It sat out in Hayward unflown for a few months before I bought it. While I like Top Gun, they actually did not check my oil filter during the prebuy because there were so few hours on it. I found the first evidence of corrosion after my first oil change with metal in the oil filter. There is no doubt an engine that's that old with low hours has a risk of having a bad cam. In fact Lycoming specifically says TBO is xxx hours or 12 years, so technically speaking, the engine is technically timed out, though Mike Busch would vehemently disagree.. If it sat in a dry hangar in Arizona, perhaps it's low risk. But the Bay Area didn't save me from a bad cam. I would also say the next time I consider buying a new plane, I'd rather get one with a lot of hours on the engine, and do the overhaul myself. A friend of mine just bought a Mooney, and while the engine technically has 700 hours left on it, due to its age he negotiated it as a run out engine. So if you get a plane with 700 hours on it after 14 years, it's like playing Russian Roulette if you price it as an airplane with 700 SMOH. Maybe treat it as 1400 SMOH and if you're lucky you'll get 700 more hours out of it. And I can assure you I'm not the only datapoint. The bad cam problem is common enough to be concerned about. Edited October 6, 2019 by jkarch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueOne Posted October 6, 2019 Report Share Posted October 6, 2019 Agree YOU should buy a runout. Next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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