Im_an_FNG Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) So I took my first choice Mooney to pre-buy. The mechanic found something wrong with literally everything on the bird. I wasn't able to see the airplane before the pre-buy (shame on me), but it basically ended up being one big project airplane (despite being pitched as pristine). So I'm back to square one, trying to figure out how to spot these lemons before I waste $1k [save $40k] on a prebuy. All that to say...let's hear some opinions about this bird https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/98544505/1967-mooney-m20f-exec-21 ...it's local to me so I could take a look at it before making any committments. Edited October 1, 2019 by Im_an_FNG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chan65 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) IMHO 1,000 was well spent if you avoided big problems , Edited October 1, 2019 by chan65 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: So I took my first choice Mooney to pre-buy. The mechanic found something wrong with literally everything on the bird. I wasn't able to see the airplane before the pre-buy (shame on me), but it basically ended up being one big project airplane (despite being pitched as pristine). So I'm back to square one, trying to figure out how to spot these lemons before I waste $1k on a prebuy. All that to say...let's hear some opinions about this bird https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/98544505/1967-mooney-m20f-exec-21 ...it's local to me so I could take a look at it before making any committments. FWIW, I bought my airplane as a fixer-upper, but it had "good bones" and now a couple years into it I've been very happy with the purchase. That said, one person had looked at it before me and brought an A&P that had evidently found a very long, prohibitive list of serious issues with the airplane. So, fortunately for me, they walked away and I bought it. It definitely wasn't pristine, but it wasn't that bad, either. And the one in the ad looks like an awesome opportunity for somebody. Nicely equipped, shows well in the pics, and seems nicely priced. Edited October 1, 2019 by EricJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasturepilot Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: I waste $1k [save $40k] on a prebuy. That word that you’re using - it does not mean what you think it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 33 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: So I took my first choice Mooney to pre-buy. The mechanic found something wrong with literally everything on the bird. I wasn't able to see the airplane before the pre-buy (shame on me), but it basically ended up being one big project airplane (despite being pitched as pristine). So I'm back to square one, trying to figure out how to spot these lemons before I waste $1k [save $40k] on a prebuy. All that to say...let's hear some opinions about this bird https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/98544505/1967-mooney-m20f-exec-21 ...it's local to me so I could take a look at it before making any committments. It is easy to find a long list of items a plane "Needs" but needs and airworthy are 2 different things. you need to set your expectations of the aircraft before you start looking. if your looking at a 40K aircraft expect you list of needs to be longer. sometimes it is better to spend more up front to get what you are looking for, but also remember even those aircraft are going to come with a needs list. BTW, that list can vary with who's looking at it and will increase once you own the plane. to explain that statement, once you are flying the aircraft, there will be things you want changed or fixed to meet your standards. there are other things that you will be fine with. Brian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, chan65 said: IMHO 1,000 was well spent if you avoided big problems , Absolutely! I was devastated when the first plane I did a prebuy on failed (and I had flown the plane and thought it was great!). Saw the plane a couple of years later and basically all the issues my IA had identified had needed to be addressed (and more). Owner was happy but he had put almost $80k into it which was not something I would have been willing to do. Sounds like you owe that mechanic a nice bottle of whiskey!. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_an_FNG Posted October 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: Absolutely! I was devastated when the first plane I did a prebuy on failed (and I had flown the plane and thought it was great!). Saw the plane a couple of years later and basically all the issues my IA had identified had needed to be addressed (and more). Owner was happy but he had put almost $80k into it which was not something I would have been willing to do. Sounds like you owe that mechanic a nice bottle of whiskey!. I just want to go ahead and say that the guys at Sonoma Jet Center went WAYY above and beyond on the pre-buy inspection. It was a humongous eye opener. I am so happy to have given them my business. When I finally find the right airplane, they will be getting my business regularly. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smwash02 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 I don't think he's saying 'waste' in the sense that it was a waste of money, but rather looking for things that may suggest it's a trainwreck before looking deeper. My answer is look at the photos -- is there fresh lipstick on the pig? Look at NTSB to see if it's had a snafu. Things happen, but what was done since? And finally, get the logbooks. Quality varies but if you see there seems to be constant issues or simply a signature sign off... may be more to the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 Logbooks and time on the engine in the past 5 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 40 minutes ago, smwash02 said: I don't think he's saying 'waste' in the sense that it was a waste of money, but rather looking for things that may suggest it's a trainwreck before looking deeper. My answer is look at the photos -- is there fresh lipstick on the pig? Look at NTSB to see if it's had a snafu. Things happen, but what was done since? And finally, get the logbooks. Quality varies but if you see there seems to be constant issues or simply a signature sign off... may be more to the story. Wow, that's an image I didn't need in my head! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 m20F chump Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 The plane you posted in the link looks nice. Adsb needs done and I don’t know that the autopilot has altitude hold. You can never buy a project cheap enough to be worthwhile. I know because I have done it 3 times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 58 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: I just want to go ahead and say that the guys at Sonoma Jet Center went WAYY above and beyond on the pre-buy inspection. It was a humongous eye opener. I am so happy to have given them my business. When I finally find the right airplane, they will be getting my business regularly. I've posted about my first pre-buy, but the upshot was that the mechanic told me "hey, I know I'm not supposed to say stuff like this, but this isn't your plane." Among other things: heavy corrosion in multiple places on control rods corrosion on control surfaces that had been painted over a gear up landing (documented), with one of the repairs being cutting the tailpipe short Fuel injection line clamp AD had clearly not been addressed recently (they were just hanging in the breeze) He spent about 45 minutes walking me around various other squawks, and pointed out they had not gotten around to opening the belly panel or even taking off the bottom cowl yet. I paid for the cost of the pre-buy right there and told him not to bother with the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcraft938 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 I feel for you, I have been there. Don't think of it as the fish that got away but the fish that didn't eat you. Pre-buys to some extent are based on the AP's opinion and take into consideration how many Mooney's they have seen, etc. I did a prebuy with someone that had reported Mooney experience, but come to find out it was rather limited and on later model birds. The A&P with considerable Pre-J experience had a not pristine opinion, but it wasn't as negative. For the 65 or earlier models there are a lot out there for around $35,000 or even less. Most likely, if you put into them to make them airworthy and so that you don't have super expensive annuals, you could have $50,000 to $60,000 wrapped up and have not touched avionics yet etc. This may not be for you, but for us, my wife and I sat down with paper and a list of what we felt it should be initially, what items were negotiable, what we would like it to be in the near future and what we had to spend now and 5yrs down the road. That helped me weed out a lot of candidates on the net quickly. I still looked at seven traveling a maximum distance of 400 mile radius from home. One was total dud, 8 hour drive and didn't even look at it for 15 minutes. One pre-buy and no thank you, then finally the right one on the way home spur of the moment find. It really helps in making decisions and negotiating if you have the "must haves" and budget figured out upfront. It also takes some of the emotion and what I call "Purchase Get There Itus". That's when you travel intent on buying a plane, you get there and start making excuses for it because you intend to buy. Be patient, you will find the right one or it will find you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 There are a few things you can/should do before getting to the pre-buy stage. First, review all of the logbooks. Look for how many hours it flies between annuals. Look for regular oil changes. Look for any times it has been out of annual. And of course any damage history. Second, do your own pre-prebuy inspection. Take off the cowl and visually inspect everything. Look for chafing, oil leaks, corrosion. Take off a few inspection plates and look for corrosion inside. Look behind the panel, is it a rats nest or neat. Take a ton of pictures as you do this, so you can go back and review them later. You don't have to be a mechanic to spot a lot of issues, just look. Finally, pre-buy the seller. Try to see what his attitude on maintenance is. Does he brag about cheap annuals from his buddy that take a day? Or does he take it to a shop with a good reputation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 I think this one looks like a worthy candidate. But here is what I'd do before starting a pre-buy. See if someone from here on MooneySpace can go look at it for you if you can't look at it yourself. Those of us who own Mooneys have dealt with plenty of maintenance issues and can probably give a thumbs up or down at no cost to you. Even if you are able to go look at it, see if someone here can go look at it with you. Get the logs if you can, go through them, ask for help here to go through them as well. When looking at the logs, see who did the last annual or the last few annuals. If it's a well known shop, it's worth getting on the phone with them to ask about the plane, and the owner. Ask "what doesn't work?" Also ask the owner what needs to be done. If the answer is everything works and it needs nothing, you probably move on to the next one. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_an_FNG Posted October 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, jaylw314 said: I've posted about my first pre-buy, but the upshot was that the mechanic told me "hey, I know I'm not supposed to say stuff like this, but this isn't your plane." Among other things: heavy corrosion in multiple places on control rods corrosion on control surfaces that had been painted over a gear up landing (documented), with one of the repairs being cutting the tailpipe short Fuel injection line clamp AD had clearly not been addressed recently (they were just hanging in the breeze) He spent about 45 minutes walking me around various other squawks, and pointed out they had not gotten around to opening the belly panel or even taking off the bottom cowl yet. I paid for the cost of the pre-buy right there and told him not to bother with the rest. This is pretty much what my mechanic told me. Almost to the T. He also did the same with the owner, and I think everyone walked away happy. These things are such delicate situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_an_FNG Posted October 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 Does anyone in the Socal area want to fly up to Stockton to look at this Mooney? I'm in Tehachapi and would gladly coordinate and pay for your fuel/operating costs/burgers/beers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 I have shared this before (when this site first opened back in whenever). I did five pre-buys and I physically saw only the first and last candidates, back in 2004 when I was looking for a Johnson bar Mooney. Each pre-buy (or other examination) cost from $0 to $500 (except for the last one which I eventually bought). Each pre-buy (regardless of cost) saved me from $50,000 mistake. None of the aircraft were considered "airworthy" following the pre-buys. I did not know what to look for - so my view of each aircraft was not going to be based on any competent considerations. It turns out that it is far less important to see the aircraft than it is to have a good Mooney-savvy mechanic working for you. I remember the guy from Missouri who called me and told me that the C model being examined had been "rode hard and put away wet." The five Mooneys included: an undocumented repair for two gear up landings, one set of rusted longerons, leaking fuel tanks, wing spar corrosion and others. You all know Clarence and he did the pre-buy on the last one (the one I bought) and the previous owner did not believe the issues Clarence found, until I told him I was not buying it without it being repaired first. The broker convinced the seller to go to the shop (to save the sale) and see the results. When he saw what Clarence showed him, he dropped the cost of repair from the asking price and I bought it. Simple, no fuss, unemotional, based on objective evidence transaction. Possible only with someone who knows what to look for and works for the buyer. We (buyers) look at potential aircraft purchases with emotion - not wanting what we do not love and wanting what excites us. Mechanics do not have this impediment to good judgement. Fact based decision making is what we use when we fly - but it can also support unbiased purchase decisions. Just me. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 Have you looked at this one? It looks like a great candidate. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corn_flake Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) Have you consider that Mooney for sale in Tehachapi? The guy bought it from a well known local AP last year, but didn't ever have the time to flight it. The last I heard he wanted to sale it to recover his cost. I think it's a 66 M20C with johnson bar. The asking price was in low $40k. Edited October 2, 2019 by corn_flake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 Pre-buy... pre-purchase inspection... PPI converted to an annual... The order of steps for the PPI... Stopping a PPI... Your first one is always going to be an adventure... Unless... 1) The plane you are buying is far from the lower rung of the Mooney ladder... 2) There are several Mooney ladders to select from... 3) each one has a bottom rung... 4) If you are a bottom rung buyer, your skills need to be sharper... Or... 1) You buy used machinery for a living... 2) You have done PPIs on used machinery... 3) Similar to buying houses, with the complexity of cars... My first PPI, never got started... I brought the specimen to the mechanic after the owner and I flew it... 1) The owner and the earth crashed together at my home drome.... 2) Then My mechanic pointed out all of the loose rivets the plane had... 3) apparently crashing with the runway was standard operating procedure for the owner... 4) There was a bunch of bondo coming loose from the wing as well... 5) Getting out of the deal required a small claims court invitation... 6) Since then, I have bought and sold many machines.... Today... sellers are usually ready to hand over the necessary details... 1) A list of details describing the plane and everything it has... expose the good to support the price... 2) A list of anything that isn’t working... expose the known bad, to not have to discount the price above... (standard rule of selling machines) 3) Pictures of everything... 4) copy of every page of every log book... When you get serious. As a buyer... 1) Get all these details at the start... 2) Read and take notes of the important timeline details... skip the minor details...(oil changes, and other common maintenance items...) 3) Buying a plane is similar to a full time job, and expensive at the same time... the pay-off, only comes after you have bought a good machine... 4) It helps to have a job that has you on the road seeing customers or suppliers... near where planes are for sale..... 5) There isn’t a reason for a seller to hide blemishes.... fuel stains are going to be found by the buyer, when he gets there... 6) If the buyer is expecting an AW plane, and everything listed in the ad to be working... 7) when it’s not... there are methods for handling that. The sales agreement is the guidance... 8) The sales agreement can be hand written by the buyer... write down everything you discuss with the seller... you sign it, they sign, take a pic... now you have something to go forwards with... 9) expect that you will discuss at least 10 items that you may not naturally agree on... write down everything... because you won’t remember in the end what was to be included or excluded.... 10) No logs, no pics, no records.... no thank you? or buy it knowing all the risks you have gathered in one machine...? 11) Some people have no idea how to sell a plane... getting logs scanned and pics taken may be a real challenge... imagine having a dial up modem on an AOL account.... There is a home for every Mooney... matching the right Mooney to your home is the tough part... PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustinNwind Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Im_an_FNG said: Does anyone in the Socal area want to fly up to Stockton to look at this Mooney? I'm in Tehachapi and would gladly coordinate and pay for your fuel/operating costs/burgers/beers. Where are you located? I'm in Santa Monica and could possibly take you up there. Also could go over things to look for specifically as I also when through a couple of pre-buys on Mooneys before buying mine, and just got out of 3 weeks of annual and touched almost every bolt on the plane (exaggeration, but pretty close). Also did pre-buy and annual with LASAR last year so have a good basis on what they like to look at as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_an_FNG Posted October 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 49 minutes ago, DustinNwind said: Where are you located? I'm in Santa Monica and could possibly take you up there. Also could go over things to look for specifically as I also when through a couple of pre-buys on Mooneys before buying mine, and just got out of 3 weeks of annual and touched almost every bolt on the plane (exaggeration, but pretty close). Also did pre-buy and annual with LASAR last year so have a good basis on what they like to look at as well. I'm 2 miles from KTSP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Im_an_FNG said: I'm 2 miles from KTSP You need to take @DustinNwind up on that offer. The education would be worth a hell of a lot more than lunch and fuel. To say nothing of the value of a second set of eyes that have no emotional stake in the purchase. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, larryb said: Finally, pre-buy the seller. Try to see what his attitude on maintenance is. Does he brag about cheap annuals from his buddy that take a day? Or does he take it to a shop with a good reputation. A pre-buy of the seller is more important than pre-buy of the airplane. If the seller passes the pre-buy with a clean bill of health, I often won't bother with a pre-buy of the airplane. I've done this one or twice . . .or 16 times, though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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