First 4 month into ownership

[jaylw314]

46 minutes ago, MrRodgers said:

I hope you find the answer to your issue.

On another note: I have been flying the airspace over the valley and we have both been on frequency at the same time.

I am N9268M in my M20F while you are N9278M.  Needless to say there was some added communication going around to make certain we all were where we said we would be. 

I am based at Van Nuys and I believe you are over at Whiteman.  Let's get together sometime.  PM me or reach out on Facebook here at the West Coast Mooney Club group page. 

You can also go to www.westcoastmooneyclub.com  and also join the club here on MooneySpace under the CLUB icon on the home page.

That is such a cool experience to figure out you're running into talking to another MS'er on the radio.  @ilovecornfields and I passed each other on a trip down to LA last year, but I haven't really run into anyone else that I know of....

[orionflt]

4 minutes ago, lithium366 said:

On my last “bad” oil analysis I started with 8qt of oil replaced at MSC when I purchased an airplane and end up having a sample with 5.5qt in the sump. Added 3qt in between but not right before the sample (so total to make up is 5-6qt for 37.5h tach between oil changes) Blackstone never asked for a sample to be done with the same amount of oil in the sump as what was put during an oil change. Of corse this still doesn’t explain an actual metal in the filter. 

unfortunately, nothing you did with the oil had an affect on the results. there is something wearing in the engine to give you the metal. we can only hope that it is wear from a sudden heavy use of the plane and will go away or be greatly reduced allowing continued operations. when you pull your 10 hour sample we will have a better idea. I still recommend borescoping the engine and doing the wobble test on the valves.

Brian  

[jaylw314]

11 minutes ago, lithium366 said:

On my last “bad” oil analysis I started with 8qt of oil replaced at MSC when I purchased an airplane and end up having a sample with 5.5qt in the sump. Added 3qt in between but not right before the sample (so total to make up is 5-6qt for 37.5h tach between oil changes) Blackstone never asked for a sample to be done with the same amount of oil in the sump as what was put during an oil change. Of corse this still doesn’t explain an actual metal in the filter. 

I don't know, I don't really worry about how much oil is in the sump at oil change.  Even if you add 1 qt of oil to 6 qts, you're only changing you're numbers by 15-20%.  If you watch your oil analyses, you'll see fluctuations larger than that from sample to sample, and some of the measured parameters only have one significant digit.  We're talking amounts that are so small, it's changes of 100-200% that are going to be significant

[lithium366]

59 minutes ago, MrRodgers said:

I hope you find the answer to your issue.

On another note: I have been flying the airspace over the valley and we have both been on frequency at the same time.

I am N9268M in my M20F while you are N9278M.  Needless to say there was some added communication going around to make certain we all were where we said we would be. 

I am based at Van Nuys and I believe you are over at Whiteman.  Let's get together sometime.  PM me or reach out on Facebook here at the West Coast Mooney Club group page. 

You can also go to www.westcoastmooneyclub.com  and also join the club here on MooneySpace under the CLUB icon on the home page.

Oh wow, I remember someone mentioned my tail number over the Simi valley but controller switched me over to VNY tower so I didn’t get what was that. Let’s meet, I am available any week day after 3pm PST. I also will appreciate any good local A&P recommendations

[ilovecornfields]

21 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That is such a cool experience to figure out you're running into talking to another MS'er on the radio.  @ilovecornfields and I passed each other on a trip down to LA last year, but I haven't really run into anyone else that I know of....

That’s probably because they can maintain 500 fpm...

Just kidding. I thought that was pretty cool as well. I meant to let you know a few weeks ago when I was in Portland but the trip was too hectic so I didn’t get to do much socializing. @kortopates caught me flying into CRQ a couple of months ago when he was doing some transition training as well. Pretty cool when you get to run into other Mooniacs!

[lithium366]

11 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

That’s probably because they can maintain 500 fpm...

Just kidding. I thought that was pretty cool as well. I meant to let you know a few weeks ago when I was in Portland but the trip was too hectic so I didn’t get to do much socializing. @kortopates caught me flying into CRQ a couple of months ago when he was doing some transition training as well. Pretty cool when you get to run into other Mooniacs!

I earned my IFR / CPL in the valley in multiples schools around so I not just run into familiar tail numbers but also automatically respond to controller calls on their behalf 

[jaylw314]

30 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

That’s probably because they can maintain 500 fpm...

Dude, that's totally uncool! 

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Dude, that's totally uncool! 

Sorry, too soon? I think I it’s been over a year....

I was actually impressed with that call because I’m sure you weren’t the only one who couldn’t maintain 500 fpm, you were just the only one who remembered that you were supposed to report that to ATC.

I was dodging storms at 15k that day and realized there was no way I was getting on top. Fortunately, they were pretty spread out at Seattle Center was really accommodating.

My apologies for my insensitive comment. 

[jaylw314]

58 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Sorry, too soon? I think I it’s been over a year....

I was actually impressed with that call because I’m sure you weren’t the only one who couldn’t maintain 500 fpm, you were just the only one who remembered that you were supposed to report that to ATC.

I was dodging storms at 15k that day and realized there was no way I was getting on top. Fortunately, they were pretty spread out at Seattle Center was really accommodating.

My apologies for my insensitive comment. 

They may not have remembered it either.  IIRC, ATC's reaction was something on the order of:

me - "climb and maintain 14,500, unable 500 feet per minute"

Center - "say again?"

me - "unable 500 feet per minute"

Center - "what? oh, thanks..."

[DXB]

Like the OP, I did oil analysis religiously when I first got my plane and struggled with the innate ambiguities and resultant anxieties of interpreting it.  I later solved this issue by pledging never to do oil analysis again.  I think engine monitoring, routine borescoping, watching oil consumption, inspecting/ maintaining my plugs,  cutting my filter, and the standard checks at annual give me all the data points I need to make good engine decisions in a timely manner. 

The cost of 5-6 oil analyses will pay for a pretty nice borescope  

Edited October 2, 2019 by DXB

[lithium366]

14 hours ago, DXB said:

Like the OP, I did oil analysis religiously when I first got my plane and struggled with the innate ambiguities and resultant anxieties of interpreting it.  I later solved this issue by pledging never to do oil analysis again.  I think engine monitoring, routine borescoping, watching oil consumption, inspecting/ maintaining my plugs,  cutting my filter, and the standard checks at annual give me all the data points I need to make good engine decisions in a timely manner. 

The cost of 5-6 oil analyses will pay for a pretty nice borescope  

I think I will have to sell around 150 borescopes now in order to be able to fly again

[lithium366]

Update: That's what came out of the filter and screen 50 hours since my last oil change. What's interesting about this metal is that oil screen was not checked for a while so I am not sure how old these pieces are. However I think I need an advise on good A&Ps in Los Angeles area who can pull cylinders (and have time to fit me in their schedule) one by one and if that's a bearing material then I can get lucky but if not then work with me to split the engine and do IRAN (or help me find a reasonably priced shop that will overhaul the engine). My goal is to only replace what is necessary and reasonable to keep flying. 

[guak]

If I remember correctly, Savvy Aviation had a similar case in one of their youtube videos.  I can't remember the title but it might be worth tracking down.

[lithium366]

Dry analysis: ... CONSISTS OF ALLOY STEEL, MATCHING BOTH AMS# 6270/6271 AND AMS# 6414/6415, RANGING IN SIZE FROM 1197 X 522 TO 28 X 21 MICRONS. ...
Does anyone knows where these metals used in IO-360-A1A? 

[ArtVandelay]

Did you happen to strain the drained oil through a screen to check for larger/heavier particles?


Tom

[lithium366]

10 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Did you happen to strain the drained oil through a screen to check for larger/heavier particles?


Tom

I am sure some oil came out and my mechanic would let me know if there are bigger particles so I think - no

[kortopates]

The big concern would be lifter spalling which is hard to verify without pulling a cylinder (I'd pick #1 first, or both odds to see all lifters and cam. But you should probably call Lycoming tech support first and see if they can narrow it down for you case it's only a gear.
Given your in LA, one option is Corona Engines whom can help you with the initial inspection and anything it may need including overhaul. Tim's by Long Beach is another good engine shop option. Or work with a local mechanic to send it anywhere you may prefer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lithium366]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

The big concern would be lifter spalling which is hard to verify without pulling a cylinder (I'd pick #1 first, or both odds to see all lifters and cam. But you should probably call Lycoming tech support first and see if they can narrow it down for you case it's only a gear.
Given your in LA, one option is Corona Engines whom can help you with the initial inspection and anything it may need including overhaul. Tim's by Long Beach is another good engine shop option. Or work with a local mechanic to send it anywhere you may prefer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s what I was thinking: working with a local mechanic. My mechanic is extremely busy these days and Corona Engines is even busier so I will have to wait about 2 months before someone will pull the cylinder(s)

[carusoam]

If it is the cam getting ground down...

You might be able to measure the lift of the valves.... there is a mechanics procedure for that...

Time wise, less than pulling a jug...

Good luck with the next steps...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

12 hours ago, lithium366 said:

Update: That's what came out of the filter and screen 50 hours since my last oil change. What's interesting about this metal is that oil screen was not checked for a while so I am not sure how old these pieces are. However I think I need an advise on good A&Ps in Los Angeles area who can pull cylinders (and have time to fit me in their schedule) one by one and if that's a bearing material then I can get lucky but if not then work with me to split the engine and do IRAN (or help me find a reasonably priced shop that will overhaul the engine). My goal is to only replace what is necessary and reasonable to keep flying. 

Those chunks seem really quite big- am I correct in thinking that was all from the screen and not the filter?  You are correct the screen rarely gets pulled for most folks - do you know when it was examined last? This stuff could have been there for a really long time. If the filter was clean this time, it might be very good news.  Regardless, speaking with Lycoming tech support about your metal analysis results seems like a good idea.  

Pulling cylinders is an expensive and potentially risky PITA.  I’m not sure I’d do it here unless the filter itself is continuing to catch abundant visible particles at this oil change. If you decide to do it, realize you have to pull two to be sure all the cam lobes and lifters got examined adequately.  To decide which one(s) to pull, You might take a very close look at your exhaust valves with a borescope and pick any cylinders with a suspicious deposit/discoloration pattern.  Or if the valves all look ok, take off ones where the top plug looks oily and/or compression is weaker and/or the crosshatch on the cylinder wall is gone.  If all that looks ok, maybe pick any jugs that have been on the engine longer than than others. 

But I really like Anthony’s idea of measuring lifter excursion though before any decision to pull jugs.  That might also make it pretty clear which jug you need to pull to see a spalled cam lobe if one exists.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, lithium366 said:

Dry analysis: ... CONSISTS OF ALLOY STEEL, MATCHING BOTH AMS# 6270/6271 AND AMS# 6414/6415, RANGING IN SIZE FROM 1197 X 522 TO 28 X 21 MICRONS. ...
Does anyone knows where these metals used in IO-360-A1A? 

The sizes above don’t agree with the picture you posted, nor do they appear ferrous to me.  They look more like lead chunks, which you can usually crush between your finger nails.

I would drain the sump and pour a gallon of varsol into it.  Shake the plane as much as possible, then pull the suction screen cap and drain it out thru the suction screen port.  Reassemble everything, refill with fresh oil, fly it again until the next oil change and recheck the filter and screen.

Clarence

[67 m20F chump]

On my B55 I found spalled lifters when we were doing cylinder work.  I hate to say it but that’s what it looked like.  Small bits like what you have.  I ended up doing an overhaul vs. IRAN because the motor was mid time and I didn’t like the scratches that were on the wall of the oil pump from those small metal bits.  Ended up needing a serviceable oil pump housing at overhaul.  Things had not progressed too far when we caught it.  With all the time and money that would have been spent on IRAN going the extra bit for overhaul seemed like an easy call.  I hope that isn’t your problem but if it is rationalize it.  This cost over 20 years isn’t that much and you will have a strong motor to fly behind!  
 

best of luck

[bob865]

Electron Microscopy is an option also.  They can run the metal fragments under an electron microscope and tell you a lot about them.  Learned about that one from a Mike Busch webinar.  Expensive, compared to oil analysis, but tells you a different level of information.

[lithium366]

13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The sizes above don’t agree with the picture you posted, nor do they appear ferrous to me.  They look more like lead chunks, which you can usually crush between your finger nails.

I would drain the sump and pour a gallon of varsol into it.  Shake the plane as much as possible, then pull the suction screen cap and drain it out thru the suction screen port.  Reassemble everything, refill with fresh oil, fly it again until the next oil change and recheck the filter and screen.

Clarence

Pieces you see are from the oil screen that was not checked who knows how long and they are also ferrous. Dry analysis results I posted are from my previous oil change when I collected metal dust from the filter and sent to AvLab

[lithium366]

6 hours ago, bob865 said:

Electron Microscopy is an option also.  They can run the metal fragments under an electron microscope and tell you a lot about them.  Learned about that one from a Mike Busch webinar.  Expensive, compared to oil analysis, but tells you a different level of information.

That’s what I get from them last time: CONSISTS OF ALLOY STEEL, MATCHING BOTH AMS# 6270/6271 AND AMS# 6414/6415, RANGING IN SIZE FROM 1197 X 522 TO 28 X 21 MICRONS

not too much useful info