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Camguard for surface corrosion


xavierde

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Should be using Camguard as standard.  Mike Busch has ample evidence on this in his "Engines" book.

My TSIO 360-LB flies on Phillips 20W50 year round (NE based too).  Should probably do W100 during summer, but too much hassle to switch back and forth.  In winter you want the 20W50.

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Are your Mooneys inside or outside? I was thinking about keeping the W100 year round as my K is hangared and with a pre-heater installed.

That should work out fine. You can almost always get power to your pre-heat away from home too.
Your #1 prioritiy should be to get 100% mineral oil base without synthetic, since these engines burn lead. Secondly Camguard is a good corrosion additive. Also a straight weight oil is better at reducing corrosion than the multi-weight and more starter adapter friendly - although I also use the Phillips 20W-50 year round.
But these engines die from corrosion, hence the priority placed on corrosion protection.


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On 9/23/2019 at 5:22 PM, xavierde said:

I have some surface corrosion in my TSIO-360-MB so I'm planning to add some Camguard next time I change the oil (now Aeroshell w100).

Any pireps on this? I'm also thinking about switching to Multigrade for the winter (NE area).

Thank you

Is anybody running them in turbos?  I remember there was some debate about this in the past. 

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Multigrade oils work better in the turbo control system from initial start, since they thicken as they warm. Straight weight oils, even in warm environments like South Florida, tend to promote overboost until the controller warms up and adjusts. Turbo controllers are adjusted at normal oil operating temperature of 180 degrees, and it can take ten minutes to reach that temperature even in a warm climate. So multi weight allows you to get flying faster without worrying about overboost.

 

Camguard is highly recommended no matter what oil you are using. 

Edited by philiplane
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45 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Multigrade oils work better in the turbo control system from initial start, since they thicken as they warm. Straight weight oils, even in warm environments like South Florida, tend to promote overboost until the controller warms up and adjusts. Turbo controllers are adjusted at normal oil operating temperature of 180 degrees, and it can take ten minutes to reach that temperature even in a warm climate. So multi weight allows you to get flying faster without worrying about overboost.

 

Camguard is highly recommended no matter what oil you are using. 

Exactly my experience as well and why I run the Phillips x-ctry multi-weight (with camguard) in my turbo. Perhaps it's even why Continental recommends multiweight for there turbos. Plus I've learned to keep the oil clean since the controllers pilot valve seems to do better job at regulating pressure to the wategate with clean oil versus dirty oil.

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On 9/23/2019 at 5:55 PM, pwnel said:

Should be using Camguard as standard.  Mike Busch has ample evidence on this in his "Engines" book.

What evidence? Is there direct evidence showing that using camguard will assure reaching TBO any more than not using it? In any plane? Flown regularly or not? 
There is, on the other hand, ample direct evidence that the best method to reach TBO is 100LL in the fuel tanks! So according to the evidence I’d rather put my money in avgas! As the late Henry Weber wisely said to me once: no sense in owning an airplane and not fly it!

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4 hours ago, PTK said:

What evidence? Is there direct evidence showing that using camguard will assure reaching TBO any more than not using it? In any plane? Flown regularly or not? 
There is, on the other hand, ample direct evidence that the best method to reach TBO is 100LL in the fuel tanks! So according to the evidence I’d rather put my money in avgas! As the late Henry Weber wisely said to me once: no sense in owning an airplane and not fly it!

Actual controlled experiments measuring the metals in oil samples.

(but if you're an anti-vaxxer there's little point trying to refer to the scientific method I guess :-) )

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Just now, pwnel said:

Actual controlled experiments measuring the metals in oil samples.

(but if you're an anti-vaxxer there's little point trying to refer to the scientific method I guess :-) )

What are those controlled experiments?  I poked around on Camguards website, but there were no references there (or anywhere for that matter) to any peer-reviewed studies as far as I could tell, unless my Google-fu is weakening...

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1 hour ago, pwnel said:

Actual controlled experiments measuring the metals in oil samples.

(but if you're an anti-vaxxer there's little point trying to refer to the scientific method I guess :-) )

Can you post a link to one such controlled experiment? Do they conclude that using scamguard will assure reaching TBO when compared to not using it? In any plane? Flown regularly or not? 

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This is my summary from reading various articles and formulating my own opinion, other opinions will vary.

Fly often and change your oil often is the best and then Camguard is not necessary. I fly often, change my oil often and use Camguard. I haven’t seen any evidence that it hurts:)  What I have read and the basic experiments I have seen with various non additive oils and Camguard show that the best anti corrosive combination is with Phillips 20/50. This contradicts the thicker W100 being better for anti corrosion as I always thought to be true. W100 has been shown to be a better lubricate because the multi weight thickening agent will break down with time causing it to become closer to the 20 than the 50. So it’s better to change multi weight oils closer to 25 hours than 50 hours, especially in a turbo. I use W100 in the summer and W20/50 in the winter both with Camguard. Aeroshel 15/50 has decent anti Corrosion properties but the synthetic blend is not as good at suspending the lead in the oil. 

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Aviation Consumer has done a few tests using steel samples.  They have repeatedly found, in their test cabinet, that over a two week period the addition of Camguard, Avblend, and the Lycoming additive all had at least some effect in limiting rust over straight oil.

You have to be a subscriber to see the articles, and I won't post any more excerpts like I have done in the past.  People who deny that those additives help prevent rust aren't convinced after reading them.  And people who already use them don't need convincing.

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8 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

I haven’t seen any evidence that it hurts:)

I haven’t seen any direct evidence that it assures reaching TBO when compared to not using it? In any plane? Flown regularly or not? 
And it’s not a question if it hurts or not. Although I’m not convinced that it doesn’t hurt. It certainly does alter the formulation the oil manufacturer engineers had intended.

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I haven’t seen ANY evidence of ANY product that “assures reaching TBO.” That’s kind of a ridiculous standard to hold this product to especially since no other product will meet that high bar.

I think the way some of us view this is analogous to the “level of evidence” scale used in many scientific publications as well as the “strength of recommendations.” Some of us would only do something if it was a Class I recommendation from level A evidence but, unfortunately, most of the things we do don’t have that kind of support behind them.

I would place Camguard as a Class IIb recommendation. I think it’s reasonable to use, probably won’t hurt (I certainly have not seen ONE study that showed any harm in using it) so I use it. And fly often. And change my oil often.

Vaccinations have class I recommendations on level A evidence and some people still don’t “believe in them” so you will never be able to use logic or science to convince everyone. That’s ok. You don’t have to pay for my maintenance and I don’t have to pay for yours (I guess indirectly through insurance maybe but that’s a different topic).

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1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I haven’t seen ANY evidence of ANY product that “assures reaching TBO.” That’s kind of a ridiculous standard to hold this product to especially since no other product will meet that high bar.

Why I think it’s ridiculous to sidestep the recommendations of the engine and oil manufacturers. I have no direct evidence to warrant the additional cost. I’d rather put the 25$ in 5 gal 100LL and fly which is consistent with what Lycoming recommends.

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Not to hijack this thread but Phillips now has their Victory AW 20W/50 which has the Lycoming Additive in it.  Using this you would not have to use Camguard but along the same lines as Camguard, does it do any good?  Is it worth the extra cost.  Cam guard is quite expensive.  I agree that flying regularly is the best antidote for corrosion but there are times when I have a longer than normal hiatus from the airplane even though I usually fly about 150 hours a year.  So is the Lycoming additive worth it or even necessary?  

And without concrete scientific proof that these additives work as they are intended then it is anecdotal and based on more of it makes me feel good more than anything else.

Oh, by the way, I do use Camguard. :)

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I use CamGuard (with AS W100). I've been at several seminars where Ed Kollin presented his work. I find it creditable. 

But most importantly, despite being retired, my plane sometimes goes several weeks between flights. Hopefully this is where CG helps prevent corrosion. SFSG.   

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The primary use of Camguard is to prevent corrosion.  Most of us don't fly our plane every day.  Ours typically sits from 1 to 14 days at a time (our operating procedures requires that one of us go fly the plane if it has sat for 14 days).  Camguard's primary claim to fame is that it will help your oil stick to the insides of your engine for up to 30 days as opposed to 1 or 2 days without Camguard.  That helps prevent corrosion which increases the likelihood that your engine will make TBO or beyond.  But nobody guarantees that an engine will make TBO because there are so many other ways that we can destroy an engine.

It claims other benefits such as somewhat better lubrication for parts that rely on splash lubrication such as our camshafts.  And it also claims to help reduce the corrosiveness of the oil as it sits in our engines.

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