Aviation Insurance Market Update

[Jerry 5TJ]

If the Mooney community trained like the turboprop folks we would spend at least $5K per year each on recurrency training costs.  But our insurance premiums would be cheaper.  

[201Steve]

On 9/24/2019 at 8:48 AM, Ned Gravel said:

A low-time pilot acquaintance just told me that he was quoted $3,000 Cdn on an insurance package for which I pay $1,300 Cdn, and did include a 10% increase for me this year.  He will have a long row to hoe.

Here are the differences between us  His 150 hours to my 1,200.  His zero complex time to my 1,000 hours.  His PPL only to my instrument rating. 

There may be others. I do not know what extra efforts in training (besides the differences in rating) he may have taken but I have taken every AOPA Safety Institute course offered and I have done two MAPA PPPs, as well as close to 70 hours formation flying over the last 7 years, including one clinic every year since 2013.

Not easy for new(er) pilots.

 

Mine was similar last year. Cut it in half putting time on the bird and getting the IR

[carusoam]

1) put time on the bird...

2) get IR

3) go to MAPA training, or Mooney Summit to get some form of recurrence noted...

Three ways I Have earned a bit of a discount...

Getting the first year out of the way helps the most... 
 

Best regards,

-a-

[RogueOne]

On 11/1/2019 at 11:41 AM, kortopates said:

Seriously?? Most mooney pilots become very proficient at slowing their Mooney down quite well after several hundred hours. After all, Mooney gear ups happen equally to both the manual gear and electric gear Mooney's virtually every week and often with multiples during the good flying weather. @mike_elliott just made the following comment this morning as well:

"...yet maxwell has repaired more gear ups on johnson bar equipped planes. Dont be lulled into thinking it cant happen to you. Very few Johnson bar equipped planes have not been geared up already. "

IMO, the reality is we're all but just a timely bad distraction away from a gear up - we're still human, be vigilant!

I know one other pilot that thinks/acts as if he is immune to being human.  I like him, but not on the gear-up issue.

Edited November 3, 2019 by RogueOne

[Raptor05121]

OPs thread has been an eye opener for me for sure. I'm going on my 5th renewal and will admit I still dont fully understand how aviation insurance works. I really wish there was a more elementary breakdown for us younger guys.

Might have to shop around. Last years policy for me (450hr VFR pilot) with 35k hull and 500k liability was $900. I'm renewing as a multi-engine commercial instrument pilot with 750hrs and my broker told me I wouldnt see much of a drop in risk due to the amount of hours I fly and annual recurrent training I already do with my CFI. Although seeing these rates others are getting I might be back up in the $1,000+ range.

I'm also tempted to drop hull coverage. If I do manage to find a job my Mooney flying will cut dramatically.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

8 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

OPs thread has been an eye opener for me for sure. I'm going on my 5th renewal and will admit I still dont fully understand how aviation insurance works. I really wish there was a more elementary breakdown for us younger guys.

Might have to shop around. Last years policy for me (450hr VFR pilot) with 35k hull and 500k liability was $900. I'm renewing as a multi-engine commercial instrument pilot with 750hrs and my broker told me I wouldnt see much of a drop in risk due to the amount of hours I fly and annual recurrent training I already do with my CFI. Although seeing these rates others are getting I might be back up in the $1,000+ range.

I'm also tempted to drop hull coverage. If I do manage to find a job my Mooney flying will cut dramatically.

 

Just a note - if you drop hull coverage, then liability coverage generally gets surcharged by 25%. 
 

Hull is cheap and it provides many added benefits...including getting the aircraft out of wherever an occurrence took place.

[HRM]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Hull is cheap and it provides many added benefits...including getting the aircraft out of wherever an occurrence took place.

Excellent point. Aircraft that cannot fly can be very expensive to move.

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Just a note - if you drop hull coverage, then liability coverage generally gets surcharged by 25%. 
 

Hull is cheap and it provides many added benefits...including getting the aircraft out of wherever an occurrence took place.

I experienced this with a beater car. My son crashed it and I had to pay $50/day to a scam towing company that had a contract with the city to tow accidents. I had to figure out how to get someone to buy the wreckage quick because the $$'s were adding up.

-Robert

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

I experienced this with a beater car. My son crashed it and I had to pay $50/day to a scam towing company that had a contract with the city to tow accidents. I had to figure out how to get someone to buy the wreckage quick because the $$'s were adding up.

-Robert

Where else in LA can you park for $50/day?

 

[tigers2007]

My renewal is due in ten days; up by 19.3%. $1M/$100k with $55k hull zero deductible.
2019: $1718 (Falcon, 3.1% hull value)
2018: $1440 (Falcon, 2.6% hull value)
2017: $1280 (Falcon, 2.3% hull value)
2016: $1752 (Starr, 5% hull value of $35k, zero retract time and new Mooney owner)

So today it’s up 34% from my lowest premium in 2017 when I only had 42hrs of Mooney time. That is unreal. Another kick in the nuts for owning a plane. $1718 ins. + $1680 hangar + $2000 annual = $5400/yr. 50hrs/yr = $108/hr dry. Cheaper then renting I guess...


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[DualRatedFlyer]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

My renewal is due in ten days; up by 19.3%. $1M/$100k with $55k hull zero deductible.
2019: $1718 (Falcon, 3.1% hull value)
2018: $1440 (Falcon, 2.6% hull value)
2017: $1280 (Falcon, 2.3% hull value)
2016: $1752 (Starr, 5% hull value of $35k, zero retract time and new Mooney owner)

So today it’s up 34% from my lowest premium in 2017 when I only had 42hrs of Mooney time. That is unreal. Another kick in the nuts for owning a plane. $1718 ins. + $1680 hangar + $2000 annual = $5400/yr. 50hrs/yr = $108/hr dry. Cheaper then renting I guess...


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What kind of total hours/ratings do you have?  

[Marauder]

My renewal is due in ten days; up by 19.3%. $1M/$100k with $55k hull zero deductible.
2019: $1718 (Falcon, 3.1% hull value)
2018: $1440 (Falcon, 2.6% hull value)
2017: $1280 (Falcon, 2.3% hull value)
2016: $1752 (Starr, 5% hull value of $35k, zero retract time and new Mooney owner)

So today it’s up 34% from my lowest premium in 2017 when I only had 42hrs of Mooney time. That is unreal. Another kick in the nuts for owning a plane. $1718 ins. + $1680 hangar + $2000 annual = $5400/yr. 50hrs/yr = $108/hr dry. Cheaper then renting I guess...


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Unfortunately a lot of prospective owners don’t take these fixed costs into consideration when buying. It is a large portion of the ownership cost that hits you whether you’re flying or not.


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[thomas1142]

Has there been any discussion on the impact new avionics on premiums? A couple of G3Xs, a GFC 500 and a GTN 750 provide a huge margin of safety and situational awareness that is amazing. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

23 minutes ago, thomas1142 said:

Has there been any discussion on the impact new avionics on premiums? A couple of G3Xs, a GFC 500 and a GTN 750 provide a huge margin of safety and situational awareness that is amazing. 

At least one carrier (Starr) provides a discount off their book rates if an aircraft meets their requirements for a Technologically Advanced Aircraft (TAA).  The aircraft you describe would qualify.  For those of you with Starr, be sure to ask to make sure you're getting the TAA discount if your aircraft qualifies

[Pete M]

My insurer tried to pull that nonsense on me 

10 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

My renewal is due in ten days; up by 19.3%. $1M/$100k with $55k hull zero deductible.
2019: $1718 (Falcon, 3.1% hull value)
2018: $1440 (Falcon, 2.6% hull value)
2017: $1280 (Falcon, 2.3% hull value)
2016: $1752 (Starr, 5% hull value of $35k, zero retract time and new Mooney owner)

So today it’s up 34% from my lowest premium in 2017 when I only had 42hrs of Mooney time. That is unreal. Another kick in the nuts for owning a plane. $1718 ins. + $1680 hangar + $2000 annual = $5400/yr. 50hrs/yr = $108/hr dry. Cheaper then renting I guess...


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My insurer or reinsurer tried to pull that nonsense on me in 05. I told him to go pound sand. Amazing how quickly my premiums came down from that guy. Dont put up with it. Tell'em your gonna cancel. These guys pocket the middle, and they're greedy. 

[ArtVandelay]

My insurer tried to pull that nonsense on me 
My insurer or reinsurer tried to pull that nonsense on me in 05. I told him to go pound sand. Amazing how quickly my premiums came down from that guy. Dont put up with it. Tell'em your gonna cancel. These guys pocket the middle, and they're greedy. 

Independent insurance agents supposedly check with all underwriters, so it should not matter?


Tom

[MooneyMitch]

Possibly this subject has been discussed in this thread previously..... possibly I missed it.

I’ve read repeatedly that as pilots in the 70+ age arena, it’s wise to not switch brokers.  Stick with your current policy folks as they “know” you.

What say you Parker, should one of  us 70+ folks enjoy supporting your company by switching to Airspeed please? 

Happy Thanksgiving to you!

[DXB]

On 10/31/2019 at 5:47 PM, tigers2007 said:

Is it possible to get a non-emergency gear-up landing exclusion? That would probably cut my premium by 33%.
 

I'd take this option if it were available. Based on my currently ingrained habits, forgetting to make sure the gear is down and locked in my J bar mooney seems like a pretty far off possibility (although of course folks continue to prove that it isn't). Unfortunately I doubt any insurer would be willing to divide their risk pool this way.  But if they are, maybe I could get another 33% off by agreeing never to go anywhere near a Boeing 737 Max again?  

[kpaul]

21 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Possibly this subject has been discussed in this thread previously..... possibly I missed it.

I’ve read repeatedly that as pilots in the 70+ age arena, it’s wise to not switch brokers.  Stick with your current policy folks as they “know” you.

What say you Parker, should one of  us 70+ folks enjoy supporting your company by switching to Airspeed please? 

Happy Thanksgiving to you!

I am not in my 70s so take it for what it's worth.  I am switching to Airspeed because I appreciate his customer first approach.   I will be using the same insurance company to cover my plane, just switching to Parker as my broker.

[donkaye]

While I don't know the answer to that question, Mitch, I can say that I have been with Falcon since the start, 27 years ago.  I have paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $75-80,000 in premiums over that time.  I have a history with the company they choose.  I wouldn't consider changing at this stage of the game.  A new insurance company which might offer a couple of hundred dollars cheaper policy has no incentive to keep me in later years.   I hadn't given insurance a second thought, had never been denied coverage, had always been given additional insured and waiver of subrogation coverage (I still have my own flight instructor coverage, but limited hull coverage with it), until the cheap insurance company who insured Mark Brandemuehl refused coverage with the stated reason of age.  The fact that I had more Mooney teaching experience than most anyone in the country was irrelevant to them.  I had never heard of his company nor they of me.  I chose not to do his training.  Even after that one, I have not be denied, but I have worked with all of those insurance companies.  Therefore, my bottom line recommendation is to stay loyal to those who know you even if it costs a few dollars more.

[MooneyMitch]

Thank you Don.

Happy, and an oh so thankful Thanksgiving to you and Shirley. 

[MooneyMitch]

16 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I am not in my 70s so take it for what it's worth.  I am switching to Airspeed because I appreciate his customer first approach.   I will be using the same insurance company to cover my plane, just switching to Parker as my broker.

Thank you.

[Parker_Woodruff]

5 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Possibly this subject has been discussed in this thread previously..... possibly I missed it.

I’ve read repeatedly that as pilots in the 70+ age arena, it’s wise to not switch brokers.  Stick with your current policy folks as they “know” you.

What say you Parker, should one of  us 70+ folks enjoy supporting your company by switching to Airspeed please? 

Happy Thanksgiving to you!

Overall, I don’t like to rock the boat with 70+, but primarily it’s staying with the carrier (a good, established one) that matters. switching brokers won’t be a problem most of the time.

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

While I don't know the answer to that question, Mitch, I can say that I have been with Falcon since the start, 27 years ago.  I have paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $75-80,000 in premiums over that time.  I have a history with the company they choose.  I wouldn't consider changing at this stage of the game.  A new insurance company which might offer a couple of hundred dollars cheaper policy has no incentive to keep me in later years.   I hadn't given insurance a second thought, had never been denied coverage, had always been given additional insured and waiver of subrogation coverage (I still have my own flight instructor coverage, but limited hull coverage with it), until the cheap insurance company who insured Mark Brandemuehl refused coverage with the stated reason of age.  The fact that I had more Mooney teaching experience than most anyone in the country was irrelevant to them.  I had never heard of his company nor they of me.  I chose not to do his training.  Even after that one, I have not be denied, but I have worked with all of those insurance companies.  Therefore, my bottom line recommendation is to stay loyal to those who know you even if it costs a few dollars more.

Don, that insurance company I believe was Allianz one of the only carriers that would insure to the limits Mark wanted. Fortunately, the instructor we used was excellent, well respected Mooney Instructor, had a good deal of Ultra time with the G1000NXI  and was given a very high rating from Mark on my debrief with him. Fortunately, Mark was insured with one of the world's largest carriers and not a fly by night insurer or cheap insurer as you state. So many people are under insured on limits because they only look at the bottom line, not whats above it.

That said, Allianz raised my 2 million smooth 800K hull non owned policy $700  this year to 3900. While I am not quite as old as you, I am almost as old as @Bob_Belville 's shoes, Age is a thing they are all over nowdays and why I had to have you added to my policy to cover the Scott Heck training if you recall when Mooney Pros, Inc hired you to do his Ultra transition. Having a bunch of time in Mooneys I have found doesnt offset being 76 years old and something you, I and everyone approaching or at 70 years old have to face. As you state, staying with a company is key. While you have been with Falcon, who is the carrier (the insurer, not the agent?)

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Don, that insurance company I believe was Allianz one of the only carriers that would insure to the limits Mark wanted. Fortunately, the instructor we used was excellent, well respected Mooney Instructor, had a good deal of Ultra time with the G1000NXI  and was given a very high rating from Mark on my debrief with him. Fortunately, Mark was insured with one of the world's largest carriers and not a fly by night insurer or cheap insurer as you state. So many people are under insured on limits because they only look at the bottom line, not whats above it.

I am insured with USAIG and have been for many years.  They have also approved me as a Mooney Specific Instructor many years ago.  Still, no matter the size of the company, Allianz was penny wise and pound foolish in my opinion, as I wrote them in my email to the insurance agent after the denial of coverage and before the training.  I'm sure Mark got good training, since you approved it, but we don't know the cause of the accident.  So, while it may not have made any difference who trained him, maybe it would have.  We'll never know now.