DGMorgan79

Newbie here looking for advice...

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8 minutes ago, DGMorgan79 said:

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. My CFI flies for a living with the Georgia Forestry Commission. He flies a 182 for patrol and one of those crazy 800hp taildragger rigs when they've got water or retardant to dump on a fire somewhere. He is a jam up guy and his son works for us so it was a good fit for me with familiarity and I felt comfortable knowing I am up with someone who flies patrol for a living with thousands upon thousands of hours in the air.  I talked to him about Mooneys and he told me they are slick, fast planes and speed control is extremely critical. He said in the past decade most of his complex training time has been with students in Bonanzas, Cessna 182s, and Pipers. He said he spent some time training in Mooneys in the 90s but not recently. I have really enjoyed the journey so far just trying to figure out where to go from here.  Thanks for all of the advice. 

If you're okay with the useful loads, of course everyone here will try to sell you on Mooney's :)

In the J models, at least, UL's seem to run from 850-950 lbs (with some outliers).  They hold 64 gal of fuel, which accounts for 384 lbs of that, so it's basically 500 lbs of people and stuff at full fuel.  If you cut the fuel to 200 lbs, you now have about 700 lbs you can haul over 300 miles of range in 2+ hours.  Not great, but not bad either.

IIRC, some J models could be modified to increase their UL.  Their owners are lucky bastards :rolleyes:

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@carusoam

The efficiency aspect of the Mooney appeals to my personality. Looking at engine overhaul prices the 200hp Lycoming seems like a good option compared to the higher horse motors. I definitely want to train for IFR after getting my private license. I would think most of my flights would be solo for business or with my wife or a friend for leisure. However, we would likely take a family trip once a month or so to see other family members so I will have a need to fit my two kids in the back plus they are growing quickly. 

I am probably overthinking all of this but I am a thorough person and I like to do my homework particularly on a discretionary depreciating asset.  

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2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

What if CFII has no Mooney experience? Then this be a case of the blind leading the blind.

BTDT.  First guy to try and instruct me int he Mooney really didn't know what he was doing, which became evident when we tried to retract the gear.  Not a good experience, and not one I would recommend to anyone.  I do credit the long ago (I've been doing this almost 20 years!) CFI who said "fly the airplane".  Certainly saved my vegan bacon that day, and the CFI's.

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Now is a great time to overthink things...

I started with a C, and had to make a change as the kids got near HS age... we were in the air once a week...

 

Factory built, IFR capable, Normally aspirated, four seats... perfect for the Mooney...

The F, G, And J are all worth taking a gander at...

I started looking to upgrade in 08, when the wheels fell off the economy...

Going Long Body just made sense as the prices were so depressed...

Best regards,

-a-

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8 hours ago, DGMorgan79 said:

I am probably overthinking all of this but I am a thorough person and I like to do my homework particularly on a discretionary depreciating asset.  

Carusoam is soooooo right.  Overthink.  And then when you think you might have your decision, DG...overthink again.  It's not that you can't "undo" a plane buy, but your pride and your wallet will fight against that decision to undo it once you buy.  Just my humble opinion...

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On 9/16/2019 at 7:38 PM, DGMorgan79 said:

I come from a family of aviators.

DG, you're about to make me be bold on this forum and I dislike you for that because I KNOW these guys on here. :)  Bottom line, keep stalking and reading and learning from these guys.  Experience is impossible to achieve without time, but knowledge is readily available to those that seek it.  Seek it here.  Read, study, research...repeat.  Ok, to my point and advice...

Nobody knows "you" but you.  Better put, I'd suggest you do some self-reflection and be honest with yourself from a task-load and ability to cope with dynamic environments easily, etc.  I'm very new to the GA and the mooney world, but I've flown military aircraft for 22 years and instructed/evaluated in 5 different jets (and continue to do so).  What I'd recommend is be honest with yourself.  The mooney is NOT scary to fly and land...IF you're disciplined with airspeed.  I almost didn't buy one because of the scary things I read online, but I'm sooooooo glad I did.  The mooney is slick-as-snot, but if you get a good instructor and you believe your hand-eye coordination and cross-check is solid, then do not hesitate.  Any aircraft, without proper training, will be a bad choice.  A mooney will exasperate this because it's fast and won't dissipate energy as your current aircraft does, but don't be afraid of it either.      

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Okay, I guess I'll be contrarian again.

When I bought my first Mooney in 1992, my 5 hours insurance checkout (and complex signoff) was with a CFI friend who had zero Mooney time.  But I viewed that checkout as having a license to learn, just like the Private Pilots License. I learned the best instrument procedures by flying with safety pilots. I learned how to land well by doing a lot of landings.  Would a Mooney-specific instructor have eased that transition? Sure.  Was it essential?  Obviously not.

Maybe it's this day and age of helicopter parenting and over protection that has affected all of this.  My car is more complex than an M20C, for God's sake.  Maybe someone can tell me that what is so important (or different) about flying a Mooney from any other of @Jim Peace "lawnmowers with wings".

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1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Okay, I guess I'll be contrarian again.

When I bought my first Mooney in 1992, my 5 hours insurance checkout (and complex signoff) was with a CFI friend who had zero Mooney time.  But I viewed that checkout as having a license to learn, just like the Private Pilots License. I learned the best instrument procedures by flying with safety pilots. I learned how to land well by doing a lot of landings.  Would a Mooney-specific instructor have eased that transition? Sure.  Was it essential?  Obviously not.

Maybe it's this day and age of helicopter parenting and over protection that has affected all of this.  My car is more complex than an M20C, for God's sake.  Maybe someone can tell me that what is so important (or different) about flying a Mooney from any other of @Jim Peace "lawnmowers with wings".

It’s a Mooney, therefore it is more complex. Harder to start, harder to work on, harder to slow down, harder to land, harder to do anything with.  I know this because I read it on this site, there are pages of these problems.

Clarence

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2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Okay, I guess I'll be contrarian again.

When I bought my first Mooney in 1992, my 5 hours insurance checkout (and complex signoff) was with a CFI friend who had zero Mooney time.  But I viewed that checkout as having a license to learn, just like the Private Pilots License. I learned the best instrument procedures by flying with safety pilots. I learned how to land well by doing a lot of landings.  Would a Mooney-specific instructor have eased that transition? Sure.  Was it essential?  Obviously not.

Maybe it's this day and age of helicopter parenting and over protection that has affected all of this.  My car is more complex than an M20C, for God's sake.  Maybe someone can tell me that what is so important (or different) about flying a Mooney from any other of @Jim Peace "lawnmowers with wings".

Yes, your car is much more complicafed than our M20-Cs, but they are also much simpler to operate. There's no descent planning, no redline speeds, the car itself manages the mixture but in the plane YOU do that, to slow your car just press on the brakes (try that in your Mooney, say to slow down before pattern entry or tomreqch flap speed after descent) . . .  

As with everything there are practices that work, there are commonly-accepted practices and there are best practices. The risks decrease with each of these improvements. But the choice is still left to the pilot. It's your money and sometimes it's your life. Training will often save some of both, although life is generally an all-or-nothing deal. 

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44 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yes, your car is much more complicafed than our M20-Cs, but they are also much simpler to operate. There's no descent planning, no redline speeds, the car itself manages the mixture but in the plane YOU do that, to slow your car just press on the brakes (try that in your Mooney, say to slow down before pattern entry or tomreqch flap speed after descent) . . .

There are no brakes on snow skis, but if you point them up hill you will slow down.   Same concept in a Mooney.  just point it up a tad and it will slow down.   Throw the gear out and you have speed brakes.

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11 hours ago, Hank said:

Yes, your car is much more complicafed than our M20-Cs, but they are also much simpler to operate. There's no descent planning, no redline speeds, the car itself manages the mixture but in the plane YOU do that, to slow your car just press on the brakes (try that in your Mooney, say to slow down before pattern entry or tomreqch flap speed after descent) . . .  

As with everything there are practices that work, there are commonly-accepted practices and there are best practices. The risks decrease with each of these improvements. But the choice is still left to the pilot. It's your money and sometimes it's your life. Training will often save some of both, although life is generally an all-or-nothing deal. 

Yes, you make a good point about the car, but I'll counter it with an M20C is an airplane.  It flies like an airplane.

And now you've made me feel as though I must've cheated death by not having 10 hours of dual with Don Kaye 27 years ago.  Maybe I should schedule with him soon just to be on the safe side. :)

But seriously, I know of airplanes that are difficult to fly or have bad reputations.  Most with good reason.  I just don't think that older Mooneys are in that group, and I ain't no Chuck Yeager.

And finally, I will always agree that a Mooney-specific checkout is worth the money.  But I don't think a new owner is cheating death or destruction if he doesn't have it.  He will have to do a lot of work and study on his own to get to the same level of expertise and safety.

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On 9/17/2019 at 7:49 AM, epsalant said:

1)  Mooneys love to fly.  Flying them is easy.  Landing is a little trickier.  In a 172 you can be 10 miles from the airport and 8000 feet above field elevation--just point your nose at the runway numbers, cut power a bit and you'll be fine.  Don't try this in a Mooney.  It won't work.  Plan you landings way out (I use 6 miles per 1000 feet of altitude loss as a quick rule of thumb) and plan to be at pattern altitude about 4 miles out, terrain permitting.   Make sure your transition training includes a cross country at reasonable cruise altitude (6000-8000 feet).

People often say that Mooneys do not go down and slow down. This is very much the truth. However, they actually go down quite well if you slow down first. The next time you think you’re way too high, try slowing to about 60kts (a touch more if you’re heavy, a touch less if light) and then maintain that airspeed, power off with pitch only. A Mooney will descend like an elevator when power off behind the drag curve. It’s good practice for proper short field technique.

Edited by Shadrach
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Andy, See if this is in line with your thinking...

When I first started flying a Mooney, I was on an extremely tight budget...

There was no TT money... 10hours dual and 10solo prior to passengers...

A then recent accident was documented... a CFI stalled a Mooney doing a go-around in a new to her plane...

The flight didn’t end well... (sense the understatement...)

 

So If there is a budget for TT... Use it.  Get the complete learning package...

It takes too long to figure the whole thing out by one’s self... especially if the pilot doesn't Have much experience beyond the C152...

Some people will be much better at it than others... The pilots that are not working in the aviation industry are probably at a much higher risk...

 

Of course... I was a PP with low time, and not a CFI... and not working in the aviation industry...

 

we have also also seen an MSer with military flying experience, experience a departure stall and land in somebody’s garage...

So...

I am happy to recommend some decent TT to anyone that comes by... in a similar way I recommend PPIs...

Spending a few bucks up front, can save a ton later on...

 

Somewhere around here was a CFI looking for some tips so he could train another pilot... a great request...  but you can feel every link of the chain coming together...

 

Hard to say what is proper advice for the entire audience on MS, today... and when the thread gets read again, in the future...

 

So...

Get the proper TT...

  • that fits your budget
  • that fits your experience 
  • that fits your needs in general...
  • use a Mooney specific CFI if you can
  • use a Mooney specific CFII if you are going to be flying in the system...
  • Use your checklist
  • Keep the ball centered

I enjoyed the TT for the M20R... so many systems to get to know... I had a decade of M20C and 1k hours already...

Gotta do what you gotta do...

Its not like the Mooney is unsafe compared to the other planes... It becomes much more safe (for some people) with proper TT...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

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36 minutes ago, carusoam said:

So If there is a budget for TT... Use it.  Get the complete learning package...

It takes too long to figure the whole thing out by one’s self... especially if the pilot doesn't Have much experience beyond the C152...

Some people will be much better at it than others... The pilots that are not working in the aviation industry are probably at a much higher risk...

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier...  Carusoam probably said it better.  Standard. :) 

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Like always, Anthony, a great synopsis. 

I will clarify, though- when I bought my first M20C in 1992, I was a Private Pilot with a very fresh instrument rating and only about 125 hours total.  That first Mooney taught me a lot!

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I'm with @Andy95W here. I'm largely self taught as well. I bought my M20C (a good starter Mooney) as a 300 hour instrument rated pilot. But with only about 10 hours in the previous four years. I got 5 hours of dual and set off on my own to figure it out. It took the next 50 hours or so, to really get comfortable with the airplane. I'm sure that could have been greatly reduced by investing in a few hours with a proper Mooney CFI such as @Parker_Woodruff, @mike_elliott, @donkaye.

At about 50 hours of time in my airplane, I attended a Mooney Caravan clinic. I came away from that experience significantly more skilled and more comfortable flying my Mooney. Not that it's a substitute for transition training, but that experience did teach me how to handle my airplane.

I will say that I can't imagine starting with an M20K or a long body, without getting proper transition training from one of these guys. 

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On another note, I'm still looking for the opportunity to get some quality dual with any of those guys. Now with just over 1000 Mooney hours, it would still be worth the time and cost to fly with a really Mooney master.

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I don't think the Mooney is that much harder to land, but it'll bite where a trainer won't.  If a trainer comes in too fast it'll slow down on its own.  You can just point the nose down and descend, you just can't do that in a Mooney.  And if you hit with too much energy, those doughnuts will give it all back in a really nice bounce.

It is true that if you come in at the right speed and just hold it off the Mooney will just about land itself.  The best landings I've ever done I did in the Mooney.  Also the worst.

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On 9/18/2019 at 6:11 AM, Hank said:

Yes, your car is much more complicafed than our M20-Cs, but they are also much simpler to operate. There's no descent planning, no redline speeds, the car itself manages the mixture but in the plane YOU do that, to slow your car just press on the brakes (try that in your Mooney, say to slow down before pattern entry or tomreqch flap speed after descent) . . .  

As with everything there are practices that work, there are commonly-accepted practices and there are best practices. The risks decrease with each of these improvements. But the choice is still left to the pilot. It's your money and sometimes it's your life. Training will often save some of both, although life is generally an all-or-nothing deal. 

I am definitely NOT picking up what you are laying down Hank.  Mooney’s are NOT more “complicated” to operate well than an automobile.  New cars have way more tech and nanny’s have been installed to protect drivers in the complex car from themselves and protect others from them.  If you learn how to control speed and properly land a Mooney there is no mystery.  Flying a Mooney is NOT harder than flying any other airplane.  The penalty is steeper for poor technique.

Come on, mixture and prop management are complex?  NOPE.

 Learn and do.  Works in cars.  Works in planes.  Like riding a bike and driving a car operating an airplane are perishable skills that need practice to remain not just competent, but proficient.

There is NOT mystery in the Mooney.  Just proper technique.

Edited by RogueOne
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3 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

Come on, mixture and prop management are complex?  NOPE.  Learn and do.  Works in cars.  Works in planes.  

???  I haven't seen a car with mixture and prop controls lately? ;)  Unless your talking about that Terrafugia(?)  Terrafuglya?  You know, that flying car thing...

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Just now, jaylw314 said:

???  I haven't seen a car with mixture and prop controls lately? ;)  Unless your talking about that Terrafugia(?)  Terrafuglya?  You know, that flying car thing...

Really?  Sigh...

There is a period.  What proceeds the comment is the sentence LEARN AND DO.

Learn and do.  Works in Cars.  Works in Planes.

Sad that I had to explain that.

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Just now, RogueOne said:

Really?  Sigh...

There is a period.  What proceeds the comment is the sentence LEARN AND DO.

Learn and do.  Works in Cars.  Works in Planes.

Sad that I had to explain that.

I was teasing you, I hoped the ;) would get that across :) 

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4 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I was teasing you, I hoped the ;) would get that across :) 

It didn’t.  Sorry...my bad.

:)

I am fighting the mother of all colds right now.  Solidly in the upper phase...after the throat killing phase.  It has been a couple years since I had one like this....Going to be great.

My apology for not getting your tease.

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