codybz

Recommendations for mobile prebuy mechanic

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I apologize if this is a repeat question but have been searching the forums and haven't been able to find a good answer. I'm looking for a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic who could travel to the Champaign, IL area for a prebuy inspection on a J model. Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, codybz said:

I apologize if this is a repeat question but have been searching the forums and haven't been able to find a good answer. I'm looking for a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic who could travel to the Champaign, IL area for a prebuy inspection on a J model. Thanks. 

Idk if he would go that far, but @orionflt might be able to help you but again idk.  I talked to him about a purchase and he seems like a wealth of info

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Thanks for the info. I'm trying to work with the owner's busy schedule to get it into the shop I want or a reputable mechanic who can go to him. 

 

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Is there a reason the plane can't be flown to a proper Mooney shop for the pre-buy. Assuming a professional pilot at your expense. 

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Welcome aboard Cody...

Using a Mobile mechanic is not particularly popular for MSers looking for complete Pre Purchase Inspections... mostly because it is a pretty involved process and requires plenty of tools that are already in use in their shops...

Fortunately, the PPI has no standards, so as the buyer... you get to decide what you want done and how important things are to you if they can’t be done...

Often, the PPI is stepwise... it progresses looking for the most obvious and expensive issues first... then every nut, bolt, fastener, until complete... you may even include the annual with the PPI if it makes sense...

I took my plane to a guy named DMax in TX for its PPI... the seller was in TX... I only needed TT while delivering it to NJ...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Is there a reason the plane can't be flown to a proper Mooney shop for the pre-buy. Assuming a professional pilot at your expense. 

I haven’t checked with the seller yet about someone else flying it to the shop. Just wanted to find out all options first. That’ll be a question to ask. Thanks

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1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard Cody...

Using a Mobile mechanic is not particularly popular for MSers looking for complete Pre Purchase Inspections... mostly because it is a pretty involved process and requires plenty of tools that are already in use in their shops...

Fortunately, the PPI has no standards, so as the buyer... you get to decide what you want done and how important things are to you if they can’t be done...

Often, the PPI is stepwise... it progresses looking for the most obvious and expensive issues first... then every nut, bolt, fastener, until complete... you may even include the annual with the PPI if it makes sense...

I took my plane to a guy named DMax in TX for its PPI... the seller was in TX... I only needed TT while delivering it to NJ...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the advice. I’d much rather get it to a shop if I can. Just trying to search out all possible options if I can’t. 

The plane was sold last year by All American so I would assume it was in pretty good shape then and has been hangared in IL since purchase. Obviously a lot could have happened in that time frame so would still like a thorough inspection. Appreciate the help.

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Unfortunately,

Even the pedigreed birds can have challenges...

Odds will be in your favor with a pedigreed bird...

A good PPI is the best protection for your wallet...

My plane came through AAA... on its way to DMax... it had a decade plus of MSC annuals an 1600hrs total time... very low risk...

It was a plane that I wanted to keep a long time... it was expensive, so I didn’t want to be stuck on the ground trying to afford hidden things to repair...

Aluminum Planes in general have a tendency to acquire and hide oxidation.... (not a Mooney specific problem)

You should be able to find a decent Mooney shop, within in an hours flight of most places....

It gets more challenging if the only shop in that area is the same shop the owner was using...

Best regards,

-a-

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10 hours ago, codybz said:

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to work with the owner's busy schedule to get it into the shop I want or a reputable mechanic who can go to him. 

 

If the owner is too busy to sell his airplane buy another.  He should have the thing delivered where you want when you want for inspection.

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51 minutes ago, steingar said:

If the owner is too busy to sell his airplane buy another.  He should have the thing delivered where you want when you want for inspection.

Really? Where you want and when you want for inspection? That’s a little unrealistic.

If it’s a good airplane the buyer should step up and work with the seller. It’s not a one way transaction. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Really? Where you want and when you want for inspection? That’s a little unrealistic.

If it’s a good airplane the buyer should step up and work with the seller. It’s not a one way transaction. 

If the seller is really interested in moving the aircraft, he should do what it takes to get it moved.  Hire a broker, hire a ferry pilot, whatever.  Lots of Mooneys on the market.  I get pushback from the seller and I'm gone.  My time is more valuable than just about anything else.  if the seller can't make it happen he can find someone else to dick around.

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

My time is more valuable than just about anything else.  

I'm sure seller might feel the same...

and normally cost of inspection, ferrying a plane to MSC and such would fall on buyer. I would certainly require some $$ escrow and non-refundable cash is deal doe not go through.

 

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3 hours ago, steingar said:

If the seller is really interested in moving the aircraft, he should do what it takes to get it moved.  Hire a broker, hire a ferry pilot, whatever.  Lots of Mooneys on the market.  I get pushback from the seller and I'm gone.  My time is more valuable than just about anything else.  if the seller can't make it happen he can find someone else to dick around.

That sounds like a desperate seller not someone who has a good Mooney for sale. I get a pushy buyer and I’m not selling them my airplane. It works both ways.

I’ll put this out there right now, I will be selling my C model in the near future and it’s not leaving my hangar to go to a shop. I’ll open it up for the buyer for them to have their mechanic look it over. I’m an A&P/IA that doesn’t trust any shop with my airplane. None of the shops will give my airplane the time and detail it requires. They want to get it in and get it out. I’m not going to be held hostage over someone else’s opinion on airworthiness. 

Maybe this seller feels like I do.

 

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14 hours ago, Sabremech said:

That sounds like a desperate seller not someone who has a good Mooney for sale. I get a pushy buyer and I’m not selling them my airplane. It works both ways.

I’ll put this out there right now, I will be selling my C model in the near future and it’s not leaving my hangar to go to a shop. I’ll open it up for the buyer for them to have their mechanic look it over. I’m an A&P/IA that doesn’t trust any shop with my airplane. None of the shops will give my airplane the time and detail it requires. They want to get it in and get it out. I’m not going to be held hostage over someone else’s opinion on airworthiness. 

Maybe this seller feels like I do.

The airplane has to go to the mechanic of MY choice, preferably the guy doing my annuals.  Has to be someone who hasn't worked on the airplane in t e past.  A Mooney Service Center better yet.  if you don't have any of that on your field, sorry, but I won't be purchasing your Mooney.  I'm sure as hell not taking your word for it that my very expensive investment is ship shape, no offense.

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15 hours ago, Igor_U said:

I'm sure seller might feel the same...

and normally cost of inspection, ferrying a plane to MSC and such would fall on buyer. I would certainly require some $$ escrow and non-refundable cash is deal doe not go through.

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  But the seller has to make the airplane available for inspection.  If I try and do this and all I get is "I'm too busy", I walk.  Do what you want, but there are lots of Mooneys out there, and I am convinced that there are very few bargains to be had.

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That sounds like a desperate seller not someone who has a good Mooney for sale. I get a pushy buyer and I’m not selling them my airplane. It works both ways.
I’ll put this out there right now, I will be selling my C model in the near future and it’s not leaving my hangar to go to a shop. I’ll open it up for the buyer for them to have their mechanic look it over. I’m an A&P/IA that doesn’t trust any shop with my airplane. None of the shops will give my airplane the time and detail it requires. They want to get it in and get it out. I’m not going to be held hostage over someone else’s opinion on airworthiness. 
Maybe this seller feels like I do.
 

A prebuy is not an inspection, so the shop cannot declare it not airworthy. This should be made clear to the buyer as well as the shop. Only after they buy the plane can they convert it into an annual if desired.
Just like IA mechanics can’t walk around declaring tied down planes not airworthy with the intention to force owners to bring their planes to their shop.


Tom
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21 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:


A prebuy is not an inspection, so the shop cannot declare it not airworthy. This should be made clear to the buyer as well as the shop. Only after they buy the plane can they convert it into an annual if desired.
Just like IA mechanics can’t walk around declaring tied down planes not airworthy with the intention to force owners to bring their planes to their shop.


Tom

A prebuy is not an airworthiness inspection, but if I find something that is not airworthy during the inspection I am required to disclose it to both parties to have it repaired. now here is the cover all kicker! 14 CFR 91.7 prohibits any person from operating an aircraft that is not in an airworthy condition. so it doesn't matter if I do not write it in the log book, it is still not airworthy, even if the aircraft is still flyable.

also remember that airworthiness doesn't just mean the aircraft isn't safe to fly, it could mean an AD wasn't complied with, a 337 wasn't filed for an STC'd item installed on the plane, or a primary gauge is inop but you didn't fix it because you have a JPI 700. also remember that there are multiple ways to mitigate airworthiness issues, with out involving the shop doing the prebuy. something as simple as marking a system inop, having paperwork corrected by the shop who completed the work, request a ferry permit to take it to where it can be fixed.the aircraft doesn't have to be held hostage at a shop, and if the FAA wont issue a ferry permit, it means that plane should not be in the air for any reason. 

I do a lot of prebuys and in doing them it is very rare that I do not find at least 1 item that affects the "airworthiness" of the aircraft. I let both the owner and buyer know what I found so they can work together to determine how they want to handle it. BTW, when a prospective buyer hires me to do a prebuy they expects me to find ALL the airworthiness issue on the plane. they do not want any surprises down the road when it comes in for it's first annual. who would be happy about finding out they have been flying for a year with exfoliation corrosion on a wing spar because the previous owner didn't want the aircraft documented as not airworthy!

Brian

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Asking a question here... :ph34r:

If an IA or A&P for that matter looking at my airplane says, "this plane isn't airworthy because of X, or because this AD wasn't complied with, or some other reason". But the airplane has a current annual, this is not during an annual inspection, and nothing is logged. Doesn't the FAR also give the PIC final determination on that airworthiness? In other words, that IA can't hold my plane hostage if I choose to fly it away? 

I'm just thinking that since shops disagree all the time on determinations of airworthiness and other questions, I as PIC might pick one opinion over another and make the decision to fly home or to a different shop?

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5 hours ago, steingar said:

The airplane has to go to the mechanic of MY choice, preferably the guy doing my annuals.  Has to be someone who hasn't worked on the airplane in t e past.  A Mooney Service Center better yet.  if you don't have any of that on your field, sorry, but I won't be purchasing your Mooney.  I'm sure as hell not taking your word for it that my very expensive investment is ship shape, no offense.

You can have Your mechanic come to my hangar where the airplane would be opened up to their liking for a pre-buy inspection. I have the required tooling for them to do an inspection. When the inspection is complete, I will close the airplane up and get it ready for a flight. 

Your mechanic will be advising you on the condition of the aircraft and not me. It’s just not leaving my hangar to go to some shop that I don’t know whether it’s an MSC or not. 

It seems the only difference between us is location. 

 

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6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Asking a question here... :ph34r:

If an IA or A&P for that matter looking at my airplane says, "this plane isn't airworthy because of X, or because this AD wasn't complied with, or some other reason". But the airplane has a current annual, this is not during an annual inspection, and nothing is logged. Doesn't the FAR also give the PIC final determination on that airworthiness? In other words, that IA can't hold my plane hostage if I choose to fly it away? 

I'm just thinking that since shops disagree all the time on determinations of airworthiness and other questions, I as PIC might pick one opinion over another and make the decision to fly home or to a different shop?

an airworthiness issue is an airworthiness issue whether it's documented in the logs or not. the only thing the annual says is when it was inspected it met the requirements at the time of the inspection, It doesn't mean the aircraft will remain airworthy all year long!  the pilots job is to ensure the aircraft meets the requirements of being airworthy. if a legitimate airworthy item is found and disclosed to you and you fly the aircraft anyway you have violated the FARs......AD not complied with, not airworthy; primary gauge inop but you have a secondary, not airworthy; STC paperwork not completed, not airworthy. none of this says the airplane won't fly! it's just not airworthy because it doesn't meet the defined requirements.

the requirements are pretty cut and dry, the maintenance manuals and FARs both define most of the limitations. I have heard some crazy things being listed as need to be repaired or replaced as airworthy items, when that happens I tell the mechanic to show me that in the book. torn rudder boots are not an airworthy item just because the mechanic feels it could let CO in the cockpit. it sounds good but the cloth boot is not keeping CO out. if you do come across one of the anomalies that are subjective, call in a second A&P, the manufacturer or even the FAA. the inspecting shop can't insist that you have it repaired by them.   

Edited by orionflt
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35 minutes ago, orionflt said:

an airworthiness issue is an airworthiness issue whether it's documented in the logs or not. the only thing the annual says is when it was inspected it met the requirements at the time of the inspection, It doesn't mean the aircraft will remain airworthy all year long!  the pilots job is to ensure the aircraft meets the requirements of being airworthy. if a legitimate airworthy item is found and disclosed to you and you fly the aircraft anyway you have violated the FARs......AD not complied with, not airworthy; primary gauge inop but you have a secondary, not airworthy; STC paperwork not completed, not airworthy. none of this says the airplane won't fly! it's just not airworthy because it doesn't meet the defined requirements.

the requirements are pretty cut and dry, the maintenance manuals and FARs both define most of the limitations. I have heard some crazy things being listed as need to be repaired or replaced as airworthy items, when that happens I tell the mechanic to show me that in the book. torn rudder boots are not an airworthy item just because the mechanic feels it could let CO2 in the cockpit. it sounds good but the cloth boot is not keeping CO2 out. if you do come across one of the anomalies that are subjective, call in a second A&P, the manufacturer or even the FAA. the inspecting shop can't insist that you have it repaired by them.   

I don't quite understand why you believe you have an obligation to tell the seller about anything.  In fact, I'd argue (like a home inspection) that the information in the prebuy belongs to the potential buyer, and it would and should only be disclosed to the seller at the buyer's discretion.  After all, the potential buyer is the one paying for the information, and your only possible contractual obligation is to him.  You've entered into no fiduciary relationship with the seller, and as the aircraft owner I've given you no authority to conduct a regulatory inspection.

I'm not saying it's bad to tell me as the seller/owner that you didn't see, for example, an AD complied with, but that's only an observation, because you haven't been authorized to conduct an inspection.  If you called the FSDO as I was flying back that I was flying an unairworthy airplane, you would be in deep kim-chee with me and my lawyers.  For all you know, I could have known that AD was complied with but I accidentally left that page out of the logbook, and I'd be under no obligation to explain that to you because determining the airworthiness of the aircraft is my prerogative outside of an actual inspection.

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43 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

After all, the potential buyer is the one paying for the information, and your only possible contractual obligation is to him.  You've entered into no fiduciary relationship with the seller, and as the aircraft owner I've given you no authority to conduct a regulatory inspection.

I have contracted with the buyer to ensure the aircraft meets his expectations before purchase, in most contracts, the owner by agreeing to the prebuy as part of the sale, agrees to address the airworthiness issues found. so yes he has agreed to the inspection by contract with the buyer.

Edited by orionflt

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10 minutes ago, orionflt said:

I have contracted with the buyer to ensure the aircraft meets his expectations before purchase, in most contracts, the owner by agreeing to the prebuy as part of the sale, agrees to address the airworthiness issues found. so yes he has agreed to the inspection by contract with the buyer.

That's probably where the misunderstanding is, then.  As a seller, I would have been explicit ahead of time that no inspection or repairs are authorized, and I would certainly not agree to address any airworthiness issues that you observed in your "non-inspection"...  If that wasn't agreed on ahead of time, I wouldn't have allowed for the pre-buy with you.

The agreement to address airworthiness issues found on the pre-buy is an agreement between the buyer and seller if the contract is completed, it's not a contract between you and the seller.

It kind of highlights the kind of communications that need to occur and the pitfalls that can happen in this sort of thing...

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Just now, jaylw314 said:

That's probably where the misunderstanding is, then.  As a seller, I would have been explicit ahead of time that no inspection or repairs are authorized, and I would certainly not agree to address any airworthiness issues that you observed in your "non-inspection"...  If that wasn't agreed on ahead of time, I wouldn't have allowed for the pre-buy with you.

It kind of highlights the kind of communications that need to occur and the pitfalls that can happen in this sort of thing...

A prebuy is an inspection looking at the aircraft so the buyer knows what he is buying, I disclose the airworthy issues to the seller so he knows what I found. it is a courtesy so when the buyer contacts him about the items found they are on the same page. 

Here is a question, If I found a crack in a cylinder during a prebuy inspection would you want me to tell you your plane was not airworthy?? 

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