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The downside of good ANR headsets


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Me too, Seth. Did it today going into 3000' with ine turn off about 2000' down. Landed on the third stripe with idle throttle and Takeoff flaps, stuck out a finger and raised flaps; hardly even used my brakes to make the turn.

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@Seth brings up a point. I wonder how many of us have landed a Mooney or anything else on a runway short enough to make retracting flaps necessary. Not Mooneys, but I flew out of a 1800' runway for a few years and didn't.

In a C a few weeks ago, I landed, slowed normally, and turned off the runway at the taxiway 1300' from the threshold without touching anything. 

Edited by midlifeflyer
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18 hours ago, Seth said:

Though some say not to touch flaps on the runway, I find the airplane brakes much better when at zero flaps vs approach flaps.

If you land with half flaps/approach flaps, it's much easier to flat spot the tires as there's more of a lift component at speed and the weight may not be on the wheels, hence the skid.

I learned how to fly my Mooney on a 2400 foot strip.  Thus, for my first 2.5 years of Mooney flying all landings were short field landings and I always retracted my flaps on landing.  Still do out of habit.

 

-Seth

This reminds me that I really like where Mooney put the gear handle in our planes. I know one of the worries that some people have is that you’re going to inadvertently raise the gear.  However, with the gear handle nearly at the glare shield I think the chances of this are very low.  

In the later model Mooney’s they put the gear handle at the bottom of the panel (which could be a little easier to mistake in a high stress situation).  Out of curiosity, can anyone who has the gear handle at the bottom tell me what the minimum gear retraction speed is before the safety switch (if that’s what it’s called) prevents retraction?

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1 hour ago, Davidv said:

This reminds me that I really like where Mooney put the gear handle in our planes. I know one of the worries that some people have is that you’re going to inadvertently raise the gear.  However, with the gear handle nearly at the glare shield I think the chances of this are very low.  

In the later model Mooney’s they put the gear handle at the bottom of the panel (which could be a little easier to mistake in a high stress situation).  Out of curiosity, can anyone who has the gear handle at the bottom tell me what the minimum gear retraction speed is before the safety switch (if that’s what it’s called) prevents retraction?

Just an FYI. I personally know of three times - in three complete different types - a squat switch (that's what it is called) failed to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction. 

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2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Just an FYI. I personally know if three times - in three complete different types - a squat switch (that's what it is called) failed to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction. 

I don't trust a microswitch to keep the large manually-operated switch from doing its primary job when I move it . . . .

Flaps can be adjusted with one finger while holding the throttle at Idle; reaching the gear switch requires letting go of the handle and reaching a foot up and over. No danger for me on rollout.

Seems most gear-ups are caused by not lowering the gear prior to landing, almost always due to distractions or non-standard happenings.

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8 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Just an FYI. I personally know if three times - in three complete different types - a squat switch (that's what it is called) failed to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction. 

Yes, I don’t think it would be ever something to rely on.  I’m also referring to the speed switch that prevents retraction below a certain IAS.  I can’t imagine the speed setting could be calibrated to adequately prevent all types of mistakes.  For instance, put it too high and you risk people not being able to raise the gear on a go around if they got slow.  Put it too low and it does nothing to prevent the person who thinks they are putting the flaps up when going 50 knots down the runway but actually touched the gear lever.  

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

I don't trust a microswitch to keep the large manually-operated switch from doing its primary job when I move it . . . .

Flaps can be adjusted with one finger while holding the throttle at Idle; reaching the gear switch requires letting go of the handle and reaching a foot up and over. No danger for me on rollout.

Seems most gear-ups are caused by not lowering the gear prior to landing, almost always due to distractions or non-standard happenings.

I never argue with anyone who wants to do it, unless I am in the airplane giving instruction. Your flight, your risk, your choice.

My only view on the subject is that, while the risk of inadvertently raising the gear may be minimal, retracting flaps on rollout is unnecessary. So I don't. 

BTW, one of those three I know personally where the squat switch didn't help. There's a 4th on a touch & go. Not the Mooney vertical separation, but also where the separation of gear and flaps has convinced many that there's "no danger" of inadvertently raising the gear instead of the flaps (similar to,"Ill never forget to put the gear down because...)

image.png.fccadcf6f90ce19ae085007bcb2cc792.png

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3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

@Seth brings up a point. I wonder how many of us have landed a Mooney or anything else on a runway short enough to make retracting flaps necessary. Not Mooneys, but I flew out of a 1800' runway for a few years and didn't.

In a C a few weeks ago, I landed, slowed normally, and turned off the runway at the taxiway 1300' from the threshold without touching anything. 

Well I fly out of a 1800ft asphalt strip and yes I retract the flaps on every landing.  I think this is a small added risk, but here is how I mitigate that risk.  On landing, if I am hot by +10 its a go around, if I am not on the runway by first 500ft its a go around, on touchdown I say these are the flaps and I retract the flaps.  Light braking at first and harder as I slow.  After I moved to this strip I graded an additional 500ft grass over run and I only used it once on a wind change on touchdown.  Its speed control and I am much better now and I try to fly every landing the same with the exception of IFR approach landings to much longer runways. 

On takeoff, I always, use takeoff flaps, call out airspeed alive, I call out V1 (just added - thank you MSers) 80% takeoff speed by 50% runway length( I marked the runway for the mid point) I call out VR - and rotate, I call out positive rate of climb wheel up, and climb out at Vx to 800ft. 

Jim

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1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Has anyone thought of putting the gear down switch on the left side, be kinda hard to mistakenly select it instead of flaps switch?


Tom

It's almost always kinda hard to mistake them. There are very few like the old Bonanzas. Look at the Cutlass above. One on the left of the power quadrant, the other on the right. One shaped like a nosewheel; the other like a flap. Nevertheless...

We're really talking about the exact same thing as a gear up landing by forgetting to lower the gear. So many safeguards  checklists, warnings, performance cues. Yet, it happens.

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5 minutes ago, Jim F said:

Well I fly out of a 1800ft asphalt strip and yes I retract the flaps on every landing. 

 

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I never argue with anyone who wants to do it, unless I am in the airplane giving instruction.

 

Edited by midlifeflyer
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5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

@Seth brings up a point. I wonder how many of us have landed a Mooney or anything else on a runway short enough to make retracting flaps necessary. Not Mooneys, but I flew out of a 1800' runway for a few years and didn't.

In a C a few weeks ago, I landed, slowed normally, and turned off the runway at the taxiway 1300' from the threshold without touching anything. 

Mark, I wish I had 1800' of decent runway.  Screen shot below is of my home airport.  Take out the displaced threshold and shit runway surface and I've got about 1100'.  My approach speed on short final is about 65 mph (yes, MPH, not knots).  Take out any headwind component and add a gusty crosswind (that gives you a downdraft as it rolls over the tree line) and I promise you'll see the benefit of retracting flaps so you don't beat the crap out of your nosegear on roll out.

But nearly every else I go, I don't touch the flaps until I clear the runway.

IMG_2280.PNG

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20 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Mark, I wish I had 1800' of decent runway.  Screen shot below is of my home airport.  Take out the displaced threshold and shit runway surface and I've got about 1100'.  My approach speed on short final is about 65 mph (yes, MPH, not knots).  Take out any headwind component and add a gusty crosswind (that gives you a downdraft as it rolls over the tree line) and I promise you'll see the benefit of retracting flaps so you don't beat the crap out of your nosegear on roll out.

But nearly every else I go, I don't touch the flaps until I clear the runway.

 

My point exactly. There are definitely real short fields where conditions mean doing a real short field landing, including dumping flaps to remove the last vestige of lift to increase breaking power.  Landing on 26 at your home airport, I'd probably do the same to be sure I avoided the nasty overrun. I doubt that's typical of light piston pilots generally. This group might be unusual, but I know a lot of pilots who think anything less than 3,000' at sea level requires a short field landing with all the trimmings. 

Kind of reminds me of the time I wanted to take a rental into a grass strip. It was the only rental FBO in my area which permitted it and it required a ground checkout by the chief instructor. It would be my first time landing on grass. Asked for  description of how I would land, I innocently said, I would use my best soft-field landing  technique. His response was priceless, "If you need to do a soft field landing, we don't want you flying there." 

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56 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Mark, I wish I had 1800' of decent runway.  Screen shot below is of my home airport.  Take out the displaced threshold and shit runway surface and I've got about 1100'.  My approach speed on short final is about 65 mph (yes, MPH, not knots).  Take out any headwind component and add a gusty crosswind (that gives you a downdraft as it rolls over the tree line) and I promise you'll see the benefit of retracting flaps so you don't beat the crap out of your nosegear on roll out.

But nearly every else I go, I don't touch the flaps until I clear the runway.

Geez, how often do you have to replace your brakes and rotors??  I'm pretty confident at this point I can get it down in 1600' if I needed to, but it sure seems like if I let the plane just roll out without brakes, it could roll for an additional 1200'...

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On 9/12/2019 at 9:10 PM, carusoam said:

Dan,

That looks like a well used tire... it probably took years to get the tread so shallow...

Happens faster than you can take your feet off the brake pedals...

Happens easier when you land at flying speeds and hit the brakes too soon...

can happen more often if you have thick soled shoes... making it challenge to know you are on the brakes...

Or so I have been told.... :)

I have also watched somebody in a twin run out of runway... the big smoke show uses up a lot more rubber...

Hope your sense of humor is working well today...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

One of the flight schools displayed a brand new tire that happened to. But short field breaking doesn't mean slam on them.

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On 9/12/2019 at 5:52 PM, exM20K said:

Or maybe the downside of lots of short field landings...

I swear: I never heard a skid.  But the evidence is hard to refute:

 

D0157641-1531-402A-A24B-23E646AABC1D.jpeg

and that’s what we call a “bullseye” in the industry!  

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5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Geez, how often do you have to replace your brakes and rotors??  I'm pretty confident at this point I can get it down in 1600' if I needed to, but it sure seems like if I let the plane just roll out without brakes, it could roll for an additional 1200'...

Brake pads every 4 years, but I’ve only replaced the rotors once- the ones that were installed when I bought the plane were the wrong part number. 

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10 hours ago, EricJ said:

That's not a flatspot.   This is a flatspot.

 

20190417_105530.jpg

That's impressive.  I have never seen one get that far and still have any rubber on the wheel.  It is usually just the rim when it has gone that bad.

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3 hours ago, kpaul said:

That's impressive.  I have never seen one get that far and still have any rubber on the wheel.  It is usually just the rim when it has gone that bad.

This is just among the various stuff laying around for show-and-tell at our school.   Nobody seems to know the story behind it or how it got there, but it was definitely ground down from a lock-up or something.   We researched the part numbers on the wheel and it appears to have been from an A-4 Skyhawk or something similar, iirc.   

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First post on the forum !

How often do you see this on an M20J? 

I do look well when cleaning the aircraft but this one took one year to spot it and now I am more concerned with breaks failures and careful with my toes 

1570994389413_IMG_20190920_101108.jpg

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