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Comparison. Value Proposition. Which? Price?


RogueOne

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https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/77848793/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21

The tale of two Mooney 66 Super 21 aircraft. See specs for exhibit A above.

Exhibit B is my plane. What my plane does not have is a 430w. What it does is: 

-Over a 1000 less engine and airframe time. 

-Less time sine major on engine and prop with no recent top overhaul/unknown. 

-All accessories updated with overhaul including exhaust and oil cooler. New teflon hoses

-March annual with 500 hour mag (external shop) completed. 

-Weep no more 2013 and 2014 complete tank strip and reseal. 

-Two owner always hangered airframe that had sb208 tubes done with complete interior refurb

-One piece belly. Overlapping k nose gear doors, cowl and hid landing light enclosure. Wing tip strobes. 

-Panel: gnc300 nav com. Kx155 com/vor, updated eight pack cluster. Full Brittain auto pilot. Wing leveler with electric on off on updated 201 yokes. Altitude hold, heading/ accu-flite, gps-accutrak; G3 engine monitor with egt, cylinder temp primary and backup oil temp, fuel flow. Digital EI on custom co-pilot panel with cylinder, oil temp/pressure/voltage/amps, fuel flow/pressure, super clock with timer. Avionics master, gear and stall audible (through headset) annunciation. Panel mount 696 gps with hardmount power and exterior gps antenna, Garmin ADSB out compliant transponder. 

What plane would you rather have and why?  What is each worth?

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3D7B7611-FF4D-4D0B-B13A-1F7B932FC274.jpeg

B2E4415C-33EC-4A34-9575-081B4A911E3E.jpeg

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I know it can be frustrating when trying to move equipment like this.  Jimmy has a great business that moves a lot of planes. However, there is always a premium that buyers pay for the knowledge and convince.  

Right now you’re looking for a vfr flyer that wants a well sorted plane and panel. To use for instrument training or actual without a ifr gps and a single non glideslope cdi is giving pause to some. 

The right person will come along but remember the process is more like selling a house vs a car. There are buyers out there and we are talking less than the price of many new cars. If the right one comes along it could be sold in a week.

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3 hours ago, RogueOne said:

What plane would you rather have and why?  What is each worth?

I'd definitely take yours.  As for worth, I couldn't give a good guess, so I won't try.  Both planes could use some panel work, but I could fly with yours for a lot of years without updating anything. 

On the other plane, I would have to update to a standard 6 pack ASAP.  More likely, I would go with a glass panel and have to since $20K pretty quick.

Just my opinion.  

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I'd rather have the tighter plane.  Cheaper to install a box instead of all that other stuff.  More importantly though, I'll vote for my plane every time.  I know it.  I know it's idiosyncrasies.  I know what it needs, and what it doesn't.  I know what's it done, I was there.

And I would't install a 430.  I'd install the new 5 AMU Garmin box that does LPV approaches.

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N3424X is the better plane in my mind. And the reasons are... and somewhat in order of importance for me.

  • Full Brittain with altitude hold vs. PC only
  • 6 pack panel vs. shotgun panel
  • Well known owner vs. well known broker
  • Recency of flight time vs. unknown
  • G3 engine monitor vs. EDM 700
  • 201 yokes vs. original yokes

 

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I would pick 24X based on better panel layout and lower time on engine. Also I don't like the open guppy and X-ray has the LASAR closure. Also love the prop spinner. One of the few if not the only advantage of being a VFR only pilot is fancy certified avionics don't matter as much and X-ray would need nothing. Some times I think Mooney Space should be re named Panel Space. As for paint both have similar design but I have to say the green is more pleasing.

Good luck whoever ends up with your E should be very happy

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Are  you also missing in your description the SWTA 201 Windshield.  From the picture it looks like yours was updated.  Yours regardless of windshield is worth 10k or more than plane A in my opinion (most of that would be in engine time, recency etc as discussed above).

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IMO true value comparisons need to have scanned logs included. It’s not fair to judge the other plane without knowing the maintenance pedigree it went through. It has a no eddy prop with about the same hours per year as the other plane. Might have flown the same amount, again hard to tell. Remember planes sold by brokers could be owned by caring MS members as well. 

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1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

IMO true value comparisons need to have scanned logs included. It’s not fair to judge the other plane without knowing the maintenance pedigree it went through. It has a no eddy prop with about the same hours per year as the other plane. Might have flown the same amount, again hard to tell. Remember planes sold by brokers could be owned by caring MS members as well. 

You are correct, of course. But then more information will always result in a better evaluation and valuation. And for my money, Jimmy is at the top of the list of brokers I want to do business with. 

But if my options are between talking with a guy I know and has been the guy in the left seat over the last several years, vs getting the story second hand from a broker, even a good friend and straight shooter like Jimmy, I gotta give the edge to the owner over the broker. Even if it's a slight edge.

 

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It’s really all about the bones...and you can’t see all of them without making a maximum effort. And few will want to invest the time and/or the money to do that.

After going through my plane, I cannot even imagine how one could draw an honest comparison between two planes without having gone completely through each of them.

Anything less is just a beauty pageant...but that’s what sells planes.

regardless, I’d trade my D for yours in a heartbeat! Lol

Edited by PilotCoyote
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9 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

It’s really all about the bones...and you can’t see all of them without making a maximum effort. And few will want to invest the time and/or the money to do that.

After going through my plane, I cannot even imagine how one could draw an honest comparison between two planes without having gone completely through each of them.

Anything less is just a beauty pageant...but that’s what sells planes.

regardless, I’d trade my D for yours in a heartbeat! Lol

I asked t compare the “known” as listed and give opinion on what plane was the better “value” proposition and what you thought they were worth...

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11 hours ago, MIm20c said:

IMO true value comparisons need to have scanned logs included. It’s not fair to judge the other plane without knowing the maintenance pedigree it went through. It has a no eddy prop with about the same hours per year as the other plane. Might have flown the same amount, again hard to tell. Remember planes sold by brokers could be owned by caring MS members as well. 

Well I didn’t have scanned logs from the other.  Only a listing.  Too funny on “maintenance pedigree” as another poster listed comments regarding maintenance...

What are you taking about regarding “about the same hours per year as the other plane”?  One has more time on airframe and engine and since overhaul.  BOTH are factored on Jimmy’s cost analysis worksheet.  No question that an owner using a broker could have cared just as much OR MORE than a private owner selling his plane.  Was that in dispute in any way shape or form?  I made ONE expensive significant maintenance point (mags) the other plane did too (Pucks).  The rest is “stuff”.  What do you value more and why and what do you think the plane(s) should sell for...

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17 hours ago, wcb said:

Are  you also missing in your description the SWTA 201 Windshield.  From the picture it looks like yours was updated.  Yours regardless of windshield is worth 10k or more than plane A in my opinion (most of that would be in engine time, recency etc as discussed above).

Naw.  Yes my 201 conversion is by SWTA, but the other plane has a speed slope windshield too so that is pretty much a wash. Scratch that.  On second look it has a two piece original windshield.  The SWTA is pretty desirable.  No longer available and  speed slope IS quite pricey to do.  Ours does also have 1/4” Side glass installed recently (presenting in as new condition) as well as headliner and carpet.  Recent cloth with headrests and memory foam vs. leather...

Edited by RogueOne
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58 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

I asked t compare the “known” as listed and give opinion on what plane was the better “value” proposition and what you thought they were worth...

Oh, I wasn’t knocking your process, Perhaps it’s the bourbon speaking, but I was merely making a point about true value, as opposed to perceived value- the former can only be known after you actually buy it and find all of its warts. And then I was pointing out that my point is kinda pointless, because-

To answer your question, I think that there are too many variables to consider- different buyers want different things. So, We wait for a buyer who subjectively values our plane over the other.... I don’t believe that a showing of hands will determine who buys which plane or for how much, or even what it might be worth. I think that cash buyers will fork over eyebrow raising amounts of money if the object of their desire speaks to them. Now, if you’re financing a plane, then of course the joy of determining the value is out of your hands.

Yours is a really nice plane, and I can honestly see someone desiring it enough to pay a premium for it. I’d be salivating all over it, except for the fact that after laying underneath mine, being curled up in a ball inside of it for over a year, and going slowly broke while not having the joy of flying it, I have little saliva left to give...

A hangar neighbor of mine has a Tri-pacer. It’s pretty, but not an Oshkosh champion plane. He’s got over 130k in it, and it doesn’t even have a moving map gps. He loves that little plane. He knows he’ll never get the money back out of it, but none of that matters to him. He’s truly operating outside of the box. There are plenty of passionate flyers/cash buyers just like him. It’ll happen!

 

Edited by PilotCoyote
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6 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

Oh, I wasn’t knocking your process, Perhaps it’s the bourbon speaking, but I was merely making a point about true value, as opposed to perceived value- the former can only be known after you actually buy it and find all of its warts. And then I was pointing out that my point is kinda pointless, because-

To answer your question, I think that there are too many variables to consider- different buyers want different things. So, We wait for a buyer who subjectively values our plane over the other.... I don’t believe that a showing of hands will determine who buys which plane or for how much, or even what it might be worth. I think that cash buyers will fork over eyebrow raising amounts of money if the object of their desire speaks to them. Now, if you’re financing a plane, then of course the joy of determining the value is out of your hands.

Yours is a really nice plane, and I can honestly see someone desiring it enough to pay a premium for it. I’d be salivating all over it, except for the fact that after laying underneath mine, being curled up in a ball inside of it for over a year, and going slowly broke while not having the joy of flying it, I have little saliva left to give...

A hangar neighbor of mine has a Tri-pacer. It’s pretty, but not an Oshkosh champion plane. He’s got over 130k in it, and it doesn’t even have a moving map gps. He loves that little plane. He knows he’ll never get the money back out of it, but none of that matters to him. He’s truly operating outside of the box. There are plenty of passionate flyers/cash buyers just like him. It’ll happen!

 

Great post.  I was once at that “Not much saliva left to give” (lol) point with 3424X...She had been a hanger queen for 15 years prior to my purchase in 2003 from original owner.  Thankfully she has been “brought back to dispatchable and drool-worthy (for me) over last decade”.  Hope you get there too.

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8 hours ago, RogueOne said:

What do you value more and why and what do you think the plane(s) should sell for...

As I tried to imply before, I believe you picked a perfect sample/comp to find market value with. I believe the average or even the well versed buyer will think the same.  I personally think Jimmy tries to set the market and he can with many of the rare/very good condition models.  If the comp above sells quickly I’d say that would be a good place to start. I’m not going to give you an exact number, that’s for the market to decide. 

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