Why are airplane batteries terrible?

[RobertGary1]

Concorde makes a big deal about the specific gravity being different on aircraft batteries. It’s why aircraft batteries have different chargers etc. 

But why. The Concorde rg-35 is rated 390 cca. My car battery is the dimensions and is rated 690 cca. And if the aircraft battery is lighter it’s by a 1/2 ounce. 

So why don’t they use automotive battery technology so our automotive testers , chargers and regen work 

[Hank]

53 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Concorde makes a big deal about the specific gravity being different on aircraft batteries. It’s why aircraft batteries have different chargers etc. 

But why. The Concorde rg-35 is rated 390 cca. My car battery is the dimensions and is rated 690 cca. And if the aircraft battery is lighter it’s by a 1/2 ounce. 

So why don’t they use automotive battery technology so our automotive testers , chargers and regen work 

What self-respecting airplane owner would use an inexpensive car battery in his airplane, when there are certified, approved, airplane-specific batteries available at only four times the price for half of the performance?

I told my neighbor what I paid for my new Concorde. He said he had paid over $300 to put a battery in his Dodge pickup with V10 engine. When he saw the exceeding smallness of my Concorde compared to the similarly-priced behemoth he uses, it made him laugh long and hard!

[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

What self-respecting airplane owner would use an inexpensive car battery in his airplane, when there are certified, approved, airplane-specific batteries available at only four times the price for half of the performance?

I told my neighbor what I paid for my new Concorde. He said he had paid over $300 to put a battery in his Dodge pickup with V10 engine. When he saw the exceeding smallness of my Concorde compared to the similarly-priced behemoth he uses, it made him laugh long and hard!

I think you missed the point. The point is that if aircraft batteries used automotive technology than there would be no benefit to needing aircraft specific chargers.  There doesn’t otherwise seem to be any advantage to the difference. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by RobertGary1

[McMooney]

there is mention of standard parts in the FAA.  I'd love a huge optima battery in back, any chance a field approval would work?

Edited September 7, 2019 by McMooney

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think you missed the point. The point is that if aircraft batteries used automotive technology than there would be no benefit to needing aircraft specific chargers.  There doesn’t otherwise seem to be any advantage to the difference. 

My Concorde doesn't use any type of charger. They generally last 6-7 years.

[ArtVandelay]

My Concorde doesn't use any type of charger. They generally last 6-7 years.

My Concorde is 2 years old and it’s already showing it’s age, no way it would last 6 years. I had better luck with Gills.


Tom

[Shadrach]

25 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think you missed the point. The point is that if aircraft batteries used automotive technology than there would be no benefit to needing aircraft specific chargers.  There doesn’t otherwise seem to be any advantage to the difference. 

It’s my opinion that the notion of an aircraft specific charger is marketing. My anecdotal experience is that other tender/desulfators work well with Aircraft batteries. Last year my Concord was starting to get a little weak due to spuratic use. I put a Keyline 5 Stage .75amp Battery Desulfator Maintainer & Conditioner on it and it brought the capacity to new levels in a few weeks. No fear when away from home. The battery now shows ~12.8v at the bus even after sitting for a few days.   Only an aviation battery would require a special $250 desulfator...except for it doesn't. It’s amazing these special and unique batteries can be charged by the Delco Remy tractor generators and mechanical voltage regulators designed in the 40s but somehow need a specialty charger...

[mike_elliott]

Speaking of Concorde, They will once again be supplying a new battery (12 or 24 V) to the raffle winner at the Mooney Summit VII. Hank Sims will be bringing the certificate with him so we can award it to the winner. Thanks Concorde!
 

[PTK]

I just replaced my Concorde RG-35-AXC after 11 years of service. Always on the batteryminder when airplane is in the hangar.

[RLCarter]

15 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s amazing these special and unique batteries can be charged by the Delco Remy tractor generators and mechanical voltage regulators designed in the 40s but somehow need a specialty charger...

Exactly.....

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, PTK said:

I just replaced my Concorde RG-35-AXC after 11 years of service. Always on the batteryminder when airplane is in the hangar.

I’m not a fan of that. The battery should hold a charge for several weeks and if it doesn’t the first time you find that out should not be down in southern Mexico. 

-Robert 

[Steve W]

In-flight the alternator/regulator isn't exactly designed to be nice to the battery, it's designed to be dead simple. AGM vs Flooded vs VRLA all like different voltages and charging patterns. On the ground you want something optimized for the chemistry/voltages of your particular battery. Check out the Concorde ICA document for the 37 different ways to charge their batteries and the capacity test I'm sure your mechanic is doing at annual. (Mine failed dismally, luckily I don't yet need a new battery as I still don't have an engine.)

[RobertGary1]

5 minutes ago, Steve W said:

In-flight the alternator/regulator isn't exactly designed to be nice to the battery, it's designed to be dead simple. AGM vs Flooded vs VRLA all like different voltages and charging patterns. On the ground you want something optimized for the chemistry/voltages of your particular battery. Check out the Concorde ICA document for the 37 different ways to charge their batteries and the capacity test I'm sure your mechanic is doing at annual. (Mine failed dismally, luckily I don't yet need a new battery as I still don't have an engine.)

Yea for 20 years I’ve been using an automotive charger and it’s always worked fine. 

-Robert 

[jaylw314]

A typical car charger should be fine for short periods of time, but for maintenance or extended charging, the voltage for AGM batteries (like Concords) needs to be a teensy bit lower.  This makes no difference if you're charging for a few hours, but over days or weeks of charging, the higher voltage will start causing degradation or damage.

On the other hand, motorcycle battery chargers should usually have an option for AGM batteries since those seem to be fairly common, so there should be no reason you couldn't use one of those...

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

there is mention of standard parts in the FAA.  I'd love a huge optima battery in back, any chance a field approval would work?

AN hardware is an example of Standard parts, but batteries are not. The TCDS specifies 4 different batteries for the E, anything that isn't PMA'd for those will require a 337. Given approved batteries are readily available I doubt your FSDO would entertain it, but you could certainly reach out to your FSDO and ask an inspector about it. Even if they'll approve, an IA (or DER) will end up needing to write up a 337 that includes an ICA and other analysis that will cost $ to get it signed off (unless you can find someone else that got a 337 for it approved to use) .

Edited September 7, 2019 by kortopates

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

A typical car charger should be fine for short periods of time, but for maintenance or extended charging, the voltage for AGM batteries (like Concords) needs to be a teensy bit lower.  This makes no difference if you're charging for a few hours, but over days or weeks of charging, the higher voltage will start causing degradation or damage.

On the other hand, motorcycle battery chargers should usually have an option for AGM batteries since those seem to be fairly common, so there should be no reason you couldn't use one of those...

I bought the .75 amp version of the charger below. It has verifiably returned my battery’s capacity to the same levels it was when new. It stays on the battery any time it’s hangared via a quick disconnect accessed through the retractable step. Perhaps there are tenders that don’t work well with aircraft batteries. This is not one of them. The airplane has been away from home for weeks st a time and the battery is performing very well.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Maintainer-Conditioner-Maintenance-KeyLine-Chargers/dp/B07G7H4ZTZ/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?adgrpid=62887167744&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu9Wnj-q_5AIVDFmGCh0BBQgGEAAYASAAEgJQyvD_BwE&hvadid=274689661665&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9008037&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3243839089776215964&hvtargid=kwd-357708636641&hydadcr=25141_9900391&keywords=keyline+battery+charger&qid=1567897712&s=gateway&sr=8-2

[N201MKTurbo]

The batteries are great, we just treat them badly. Once again people are comparing cars to airplanes when that is apples to oranges.

When I commuted with my plane every day, my batteries would last 10 years, better than most car batteries. Now that I fly about once a week they seem to last about 2-3 years. If you only drove your car as often as you fly your plane it’s battery would most likely fail sooner than the plane battery. 

Just remember, for every plane sortie there are at least two car sorties. One to the airport and one from the airport. Make a list of car sorties vs plane sorties and you will probably see a 50 to 1 ratio or more, yet you want them to perform the same.

Use it or lose it!

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The batteries are great, we just treat them badly. Once again people are comparing cars to airplanes when that is apples to oranges.

When I commuted with my plane every day, my batteries would last 10 years, better than most car batteries. Now that I fly about once a week they seem to last about 2-3 years. If you only drove your car as often as you fly your plane it’s battery would most likely fail sooner than the plane battery. 

Just remember, for every plane sortie there are at least two car sorties. One to the airport and one from the airport. Make a list of car sorties vs plane sorties and you will probably see a 50 to 1 ratio or more, yet you want them to perform the same.

Use it or lose it!

I'll let you know, since my truck just became a weekend driver. The little bitty battery in my riding mower used to die every secind winter in WV, but is now finishing its 4th summer in Alabama. I'll have to check the date on my Concorde, the first one was 6-1/2 years old, replaced early before a trip to the boonies; I think the current ine is now 3 years old, never seen a charger other than my alternator, and I'm not flying near as much as I want to and certainly not every week . . . .

[RobertGary1]

20 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The batteries are great, we just treat them badly. Once again people are comparing cars to airplanes when that is apples to oranges.

When I commuted with my plane every day, my batteries would last 10 years, better than most car batteries. Now that I fly about once a week they seem to last about 2-3 years. If you only drove your car as often as you fly your plane it’s battery would most likely fail sooner than the plane battery. 

Just remember, for every plane sortie there are at least two car sorties. One to the airport and one from the airport. Make a list of car sorties vs plane sorties and you will probably see a 50 to 1 ratio or more, yet you want them to perform the same.

Use it or lose it!

Not complaint about the performance of the battery but it’s unnecessary non standard tool. Motorcycle batteries take more abuse. 

[rbridges]

I use a $25 float charger from Lowe's. Got 7 years with my Concord. Could have gone longer, but I could sense it wasn't 100%. 

[RobertGary1]

26 minutes ago, rbridges said:

I use a $25 float charger from Lowe's. Got 7 years with my Concord. Could have gone longer, but I could sense it wasn't 100%. 

I have a tester that gives a print out including the cca which Concorde says should be 390. 

[RLCarter]

Batteries are "Dry Charged" and the polarity set during manufacturing. Flooded batteries need to sit for a minimum of 4 hours before it is placed  on a charger, Maintenance Free batteries need to sit even longer (8~12 hrs) after the acid is added. Batteries that have the acid added and put on a charger or worse, placed in service won't last more than a few years at best. At best guess I've serviced tens of thousands of batteries over the past 40+ years in the Motorcycle Industry and other than improper servicing when new the biggest killer was letting sit and short hops which didn't allow enough time for that battery to be fully charged after being taxed by the starter. My maintinace free Gil is going on 4 years old and its 1st year it just sat on the floor (ordered too soon) I've charged several times with nothing more than 6/12, 2/10amp regular old battery charger

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Speaking of Concorde, They will once again be supplying a new battery (12 or 24 V) to the raffle winner at the Mooney Summit VII. Hank Sims will be bringing the certificate with him so we can award it to the winner. Thanks Concorde!
 

I won one of these certificates on my first trip to Oshkosh with the Mooney Caravan. Four years later I needed a battery, a quick call to Concord, gave them the certificate number and they shipped me a new battery at no cost. Good company, good batteries.

[RobertGary1]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

I won one of these certificates on my first trip to Oshkosh with the Mooney Caravan. Four years later I needed a battery, a quick call to Concord, gave them the certificate number and they shipped me a new battery at no cost. Good company, good batteries.

I’ve run a variety of batteries but Concorde has been the best. 

-Robert 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I bought the .75 amp version of the charger below. It has verifiably returned my battery’s capacity to the same levels it was when new. It stays on the battery any time it’s hangared via a quick disconnect accessed through the retractable step. Perhaps there are tenders that don’t work well with aircraft batteries. This is not one of them. The airplane has been away from home for weeks st a time and the battery is performing very well.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Maintainer-Conditioner-Maintenance-KeyLine-Chargers/dp/B07G7H4ZTZ/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?adgrpid=62887167744&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu9Wnj-q_5AIVDFmGCh0BBQgGEAAYASAAEgJQyvD_BwE&hvadid=274689661665&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9008037&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3243839089776215964&hvtargid=kwd-357708636641&hydadcr=25141_9900391&keywords=keyline+battery+charger&qid=1567897712&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Yup.  Does it automatically detect AGM or is there a switch/setting for battery type?

Most of the concerns about getting voltages too high were with old constant-voltage chargers.  Most modern chargers are variations of 3-phase chargers (constant-current, constant voltage and float voltage) where this is much less of a problem.  Still, you want to make sure the float-voltage is appropriate for AGM's if you're going to leave it on for more than just overnight.