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Possible ads-b extension


RobertGary1

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11 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I agree with Jay. A lot of people have been saying for years that “in the future, you will NEED a WAAS GPS with the ability to do LPV approaches “. 

I fly for a living and I can count on one hand the number of ILS approaches to no-shit minimums I’ve flown in 20 years. (I’m not counting autolands to below CAT 1 minimums because LPV wouldn’t have helped in those situations).  A non-WAAS GPS to LNAV minimums works just fine more than 99% of the time. 

Can you still even buy a non-WAAS GPS today? Seems like a missed opportunity to spend thousands to rework a panel and not include it.

-Robert

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:43 AM, RobertGary1 said:

I’ve thought about getting uAvionics as a temp solution until Garmin and the shops catch up. I fly in the Bay Area so ads-b is necessary. Not sure how easy it would be to transfer one of those units once it’s been assigned and if there is an stc if they allow reassignment. 

-Robert 

Both are easy, it is literally a 5 min reprogram. Takes longer to connect. As for moving to another plane no issues, just file the paperwork to update the removal and installation on the new aircraft. 

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5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I agree with Jay. A lot of people have been saying for years that “in the future, you will NEED a WAAS GPS with the ability to do LPV approaches “. 

I fly for a living and I can count on one hand the number of ILS approaches to no-shit minimums I’ve flown in 20 years. (I’m not counting autolands to below CAT 1 minimums because LPV wouldn’t have helped in those situations).  A non-WAAS GPS to LNAV minimums works just fine more than 99% of the time. 

I certainly don't disagree with your statement nor @jaylw314 at all - most of the time LNAV min are plenty good enough. But WAAS isn't just good for just LPV minimums. So many are quick to dismiss it because they can only translate it into LPV minimums.  It has huge benefits and just because those huge benefits don't directly translate into increased minimums doesn't mean they aren't easily justified or really of value to pilots. Are they required? Of course not, but they greatly simply flying approaches for all of us and probably more so for the pilot that isn't flying frequently. I'd argue that they add a tangible amount of safety with improved situational awareness and the ability to fly more approach leg types - even though I realize we have yet to ever see the accident rate decrease from leaps in technology in the cockpit. But what I am referring to is the added VNAV or +V capability and 5 hz update rate that comes with WAAS. To highlight a few benefits of WAAS beyond LPV, start with the 5 hz update rate. In a partial panel emergency we now have a more reliable box for flying partial panel using just GPS ground track information that's continuously precise even in a turn unlike the compass bobbing up and down in turbulence. Then we have the other benefits that it adds additional approach types such as LP and vertical nav brings us advisory glideslope (+V) on all GPS approaches; including LNAV & LP. With the latest GTN series we also now get support for heading leg types that we didn't have previously when flying missed approaches, ODP's and SIDs - which have Heading legs(rather than course); and even RF leg support. Do you really need this stuff to get down? No, usually not, but it sure is handy when the weather is low and everyone that flys with WAAS knows the added situational awareness is really helpful. Perhaps one of the best examples how its really helpful is the GTN support for a visual approach into every runway at every airport including with +V (when lack of obstacles permits) which is a great tool for even flying VFR into an unfamiliar airport. 

Like every leap in technology, to be useful, the pilot has to train to know how to use their avionics well. But when things aren't going well, the technology gives us far better tools to work with for those that have mastered it, and I personally find this just as valuable as the LPV approach capabilities. LPV approaches are only touching the surface of what WAAS brings us in a modern box but so many don't seem to understand how useful it really is beyond LPV approaches. 

Edited by kortopates
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25 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Can you still even buy a non-WAAS GPS today? Seems like a missed opportunity to spend thousands to rework a panel and not include it.

-Robert

I bought a KLN94 off another Mooneyspacer.  Non WAAS and never will be.  Old technology, but it seems to be working just fine.  Of course, a few years later Garmin comes out with a new box that I would have bought in a heartbeat.  And so it goes.

My issue was simple economics.  I didn't think an old M20c was the right airplane for a top-of-the-line box.  I'd never recover the investment.  I won't recover the investment I made putting in the KLN94, but at least its not quite as much money. 

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

I bought a KLN94 off another Mooneyspacer.  Non WAAS and never will be.  Old technology, but it seems to be working just fine.  Of course, a few years later Garmin comes out with a new box that I would have bought in a heartbeat.  And so it goes.

My issue was simple economics.  I didn't think an old M20c was the right airplane for a top-of-the-line box.  I'd never recover the investment.  I won't recover the investment I made putting in the KLN94, but at least its not quite as much money. 

You won’t recover the investment from your last annual 

-Robert 

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WAAS is what enables higher-accuracy position reporting that enables the reduced separation that ATC is moving toward using for routing and control, and is why ADS-B-out requires it, and is why ADS-B-out will be (mostly) required after Jan 1.   It's not just for LPV approaches, it's a key part of what enables the whole paradigm shift of how ATC is going to work in the future.

WAAS is not a cost-adder.   I bought a WAAS GPS receiver/antenna that plugs into my Stratux and I think I paid $15 for it.    The cost delta to add WAAS to a GPS navigator is in the noise, so I think previous posters are correct that any GPS navigator purchased in the future will have it, both because it'll pretty much be required, anyway, and because the added cost is incremental.

 

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30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

WAAS is what enables higher-accuracy position reporting that enables the reduced separation that ATC is moving toward using for routing and control, and is why ADS-B-out requires it, and is why ADS-B-out will be (mostly) required after Jan 1.   It's not just for LPV approaches, it's a key part of what enables the whole paradigm shift of how ATC is going to work in the future.

WAAS is not a cost-adder.   I bought a WAAS GPS receiver/antenna that plugs into my Stratux and I think I paid $15 for it.    The cost delta to add WAAS to a GPS navigator is in the noise, so I think previous posters are correct that any GPS navigator purchased in the future will have it, both because it'll pretty much be required, anyway, and because the added cost is incremental.

 

The added "cost" is minimal; my G430 was upgraded at 50% discount for $1500 . . . Last I heard it was almost $4000 to upgrade . . . .

Never confuse cost with price.

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12 minutes ago, Hank said:

The added "cost" is minimal; my G430 was upgraded at 50% discount for $1500 . . . Last I heard it was almost $4000 to upgrade . . . .

Never confuse cost with price.

Yeah, popping out a box to add it clearly adds cost.   Including it in a new box purchase is incremental.

...yeah, ninja edit...

 

Edited by EricJ
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IIRC there was/are only 2 companies making "certified" WAAS motors and that restricted deployment and ran up costs over the "on the board" cost for the motor.

As mentioned- cost on the board is way different than retail pricing when the supply is tightly controlled,

I think one will find that the only place where WAAS will reduce separation will be on STARs to the 5 or 6 major airports in this country. Anyone want t bet me?  It may how ever help with random routings some time in the future. 

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13 hours ago, Hank said:

The added "cost" is minimal; my G430 was upgraded at 50% discount for $1500 . . . Last I heard it was almost $4000 to upgrade . . . .

Never confuse cost with price.

Why would you pay 4000 to upgrade 15 year old technology when you can get a new box with a better screen for the same price.  https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/garmin-gps-175-touchscreen-navigator.html?mrkgcl=596&mrkgadid=2289405132&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=General&adpos=1t1&creative=295428069580&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwtuLrBRAlEiwAPVcZBobg1dfO_-CoV37rvSYmIsTRcSPAT1wTjTsiluKLRPFd1KK7FPoJQRoCBYoQAvD_BwE

 

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23 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I installed a GDL 88 (and a GTN 750) DEC 18, 2012, about 10 minutes after Garmin got the 88 approved. I've been compliant and have had weather and traffic displayed on the 750 for almost 7 years. 

I think I made a good decision to get and enjoy the goodies early, even though there might be cheaper solutions coming at some point. 

You mean you bought something for a possible benefit? Now is that anyway to maintain a good standing in the CB club?

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26 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

You mean you bought something for a possible benefit? Now is that anyway to maintain a good standing in the CB club?

I done got myself throwed out of the CB club some years ago. So did my panel hero @Marauder who once pretended to be a CB.

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1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Well because to get a COMPARABLE  new garmin radio is around $7000  The GNC 355. The GPS 175 you mention does not have a comm radio in it. 

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1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I done got myself throwed out of the CB club some years ago. So did my panel hero @Marauder who once pretended to be a CB.

havent you heard, that stuff in your panel is last years technology, cant be upgraded, basically throw away like G1000 Mooneys are professed by the jealous to be :)

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2 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Well because to get a COMPARABLE  new garmin radio is around $7000  The GNC 355. The GPS 175 you mention does not have a comm radio in it. 

Update 15 year old technology or get redundancy with new technology.....    Or get new technology with the comm as you described.   Only the government could come up with three different standards for GPS.....

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1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

"Investment"? You mean like AAPL? 

The money you put into upgrading your airplane is basically an investment in an asset.  Used to be that you'd probably recover your investment if not make a little more, airplanes appreciated because they weren't making any more.  Airplanes aren't appreciating anymore even though they're still not making many.  Too few pilots for the extant fleet.  So you now have to factor in that whatever you spend upgrading your aircraft you won't make back.  Says me its totally worth it, especially if you're going to keep the aircraft awhile.  Buying new you get lots of depreciation, and even if you put every bell and whistle imaginable on your aircraft, you still won't approach the money you spend on a new one.

You don't recover what you spend on anything else either, hangar, maintenance, insurance and gas.  But those are essentials, you have to spend that money to own an airplane. Upgrades for the most part aren't, except of course engine and paint.  The ironic thing is the optional stuff is probably a minority of what we spend, but we seem to obsess about it the most.

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Food for thought-

Granted the WAAS technology is fantastic BUT

Why would I want to fly into weather that goes right down to the ground (even if I can get down to 250' on the approach with said GPS at the end of the trip), why would I want to fly into that stuff in a single engine airplane with one vacuum pump between me and a dead stick glide where once I break out at the bottom of that low ceiling in the glide, over terrain I haven't seen yet; where I might have 20 or 30 seconds to see what I'm about to hit (let alone picking a safe spot to land)? 

Granted, its done all the time but just maybe its not a bright idea to push it that far.

Just thinkin'

I guess the "cool" factor comes in also as everyone seems to want a CAT III autopilot for $5000 also

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5 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Food for thought-

Granted the WAAS technology is fantastic BUT

Why would I want to fly into weather that goes right down to the ground (even if I can get down to 250' on the approach with said GPS at the end of the trip), why would I want to fly into that stuff in a single engine airplane with one vacuum pump between me and a dead stick glide where once I break out at the bottom of that low ceiling in the glide, over terrain I haven't seen yet; where I might have 20 or 30 seconds to see what I'm about to hit (let alone picking a safe spot to land)? 

Granted, its done all the time but just maybe its not a bright idea to push it that far.

Just thinkin'

I guess the "cool" factor comes in also as everyone seems to want a CAT III autopilot for $5000 also

Oh the question game I like this:   Why should the kind of accuracy you speak of cost $4000 when I can get the same for $9.00    You say "Are you going to trust your life on a $9 USB.   OK so lets put 3 of them together for a total cost of $27 and have them vote on the most accurate position.    Would that not be a much better way to bet your life than the 15 year old technology you are currently betting your life on?

https://portal.u-blox.com/s/question/0D52p00008HKCDmCAP/does-ublox-standalone-positioning-provide-vertical-positioning-how-precise-is-it

 

 

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44 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Well because to get a COMPARABLE  new garmin radio is around $7000  The GNC 355. The GPS 175 you mention does not have a comm radio in it. 

There is no such thing as a great value from big G, their stuff is good, but it's like going to Denny's for breakfast...by the time you get most of the things you like, it jumps from $6 to $12 and that's without coffee.

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