blaine beaven

Replacement Prop needed

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Hi All, 

I have been having a banner year with my 1978J. First, at the annual (started in March), significant corrosion in the tube frame was found. We had those parts cut out and new parts welded in (simplifying, but that's the gist). Annual completed by mid July, just in time to take the plane on holidays.

On the flight home, stopping at a small airport for fuel, I managed to hit a wooden 2x4 someone left propped up on the edge of the taxiway, and damaged the skin under the wing, near the wing tip. The plane was ferry'd to a nearby repair shop and they are re-skinning and painting that section of the wing, after inspecting the spar etc for damage. Insurance is paying that bill. 

My propeller was due for a 10 year overhaul (required in Canada) at the end of September, so I had the shop doing the wing work send it to a local prop shop. The prop (blades and hub) is original to the plane. It did not pass; the blades and hub are scrapped. 

So I have a few options: 

1. Used/overhauled McCauley C214

2. New McCauley C214 - to replace what I have on there

3. New Hartzell Top Prop Scimitar with STC

The prop shop is pricing out #'s 2 & # for me - in the meantime, I am looking to see if anyone has a used/overhauled C214 they are willing to part with? Please pm me or email at blaine_beaven[at]hotmail.com

Thanks!

Blaine

 

Edited by blaine beaven

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3 minutes ago, blaine beaven said:

Hi All, 

I have been having a banner year with my 1978J. First, at the annual (started in March), significant corrosion in the tube frame was found. We had those parts cut out and new parts welded in (simplifying, but that's the gist). Annual completed by mid July, just in time to take the plane on holidays.

On the flight home, stopping at a small airport for fuel, I managed to hit a wooden 2x4 someone left propped up on the edge of the taxiway, and damaged the skin under the wing, near the wing tip. The plane was ferry'd to a nearby repair shop and they are re-skinning and painting that section of the wing, after inspecting the spar etc for damage. Insurance is paying that bill. 

My propeller was due for a 10 year overhaul (required in Canada) at the end of September, so I had the shop doing the wing work send it to a local prop shop. The prop (blades and hub) is original to the plane. It did not pass; the blades and prop are scrapped. 

So I have a few options: 

1. Used/overhauled McCauley C214

2. New McCauley C214 - to replace what I have on there

3. New Hartzell Top Prop Scimitar with STC

The prop shop is pricing out #'s 2 & # for me - in the meantime, I am looking to see if anyone has a used/overhauled C214 they are willing to part with? Please pm me or email at blaine_beaven[at]hotmail.com

Thanks!

Blaine

 

@Cody Stallings is our prop guy here, so he might have good advice.

If you need to replace both blades, finding two good used blades at the same time might be tough.

Can you buy two new McCauley blades, or is the hub scrapped as well?  That might be cost-effective

IIRC, when I had to get a new prop, the new McCauley with hub actually ended up being a little less expensive but a much longer lead time than the new Hartzell with hub, so I went with the new Hartzell.

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I made an error in my original post - the hub is scrapped too. So simply replacing the blades doesn’t seem to be a viable option.


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[mention=9703]Cody Stallings[/mention] is our prop guy here, so he might have good advice.
If you need to replace both blades, finding two good used blades at the same time might be tough.
Can you buy two new McCauley blades, or is the hub scrapped as well?  That might be cost-effective
IIRC, when I had to get a new prop, the new McCauley with hub actually ended up being a little less expensive but a much longer lead time than the new Hartzell with hub, so I went with the new Hartzell.


How do you like the Hartzell? I have not seen many reports other than one post from 2010 where someone said they got +6kts in Cruise from it.


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I love my MT on my '77 J. If you order now, you likely won't get it until December, though, which sucks for an unplanned upgrade.

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6 minutes ago, blaine beaven said:

How do you like the Hartzell? I have not seen many reports other than one post from 2010 where someone said they got +6kts in Cruise from it.

 

For $9.5k USD, it seems like a whole lotta the same.  Maybe a little more vibration than the McCauley, maybe a little quieter in cruise?  I won't say there was any obvious performance difference.  My wife thinks it looks better, though.

I checked my records, I was incorrect, the new McCauley was actually about $10.5k  and about the same lead time, so it was actually a little more expensive than the new Hartzell.  Somebody said I got a screaming deal on the Hartzell, but at the time it sure didn't feel like it :rolleyes:

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46 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I love my MT on my '77 J. If you order now, you likely won't get it until December, though, which sucks for an unplanned upgrade.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

I have heard too many horror stories with MT regarding delamination and other issues, and little to no warranty or assistance. I also operate off of gravel a fair amount; I understand that nicks etc are a show stopper, which won't work for me. Thanks though!

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I've had none of those issues after some initial paint failures that were handled under warranty promptly. I don't operate on gravel, though. I would expect an MT to be more durable on gravel than an aluminum blade though...a replaceable steel or nickel leading edge means infinite blade life unless you hit something stationary. File an aluminum blade down a few times and it will get condemned, especially in Canada.

The lighter weight on the nose and the turbine-like smoothness are way better than my old McCauley.

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I personally would just Purchase the Hartzell STC option.

Finding a Serviceable C200 Series for a J May no be tough, but you can almost be certain of Last Run. So next time it went to the shop, you would be back where you are now.

 

My Opinion of Course

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Two years ago my prop starting throwing grease and I found myself in a similar situation. I had my prop removed and sent to American Propeller for IRAN and got the bad news that the blades were out of limits and the hub needed significant repairs. My options were new prop and hub with C214 blades at $13K and a 10 week wait or B rated blades and repaired/overhauled hub for $7k with a two week wait. I chose the latter while choking but was assured that I'd get at least two overhauls out of the used blades and hub repairs. Looking at this thread, there are other options if you can stand the lead time. If you can't http://www.americanpropeller.com/ may have used blades and a hub that you can purchase. 

My 2¢

Edited by jonhop

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4 hours ago, jonhop said:

Two years ago my prop starting throwing grease and I found myself in a similar situation. I had my prop removed and sent to American Propeller for IRAN and got the bad news that the blades were out of limits and the hub needed significant repairs. My options were new prop and hub with C214 blades at $13K and a 10 week wait or B rated blades and repaired/overhauled hub for $7k with a two week wait. I chose the latter while choking but was assured that I'd get at least two overhauls out of the used blades and hub repairs. Looking at this thread, there are other options if you can stand the lead time. If you can't http://www.americanpropeller.com/ may have used blades and a hub that you can purchase. 

My 2¢

Well waddya know, THAT sounds like a familiar story :huh:

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13 hours ago, blaine beaven said:

Hi All, 

I have been having a banner year with my 1978J. First, at the annual (started in March), significant corrosion in the tube frame was found. We had those parts cut out and new parts welded in (simplifying, but that's the gist). Annual completed by mid July, just in time to take the plane on holidays.

On the flight home, stopping at a small airport for fuel, I managed to hit a wooden 2x4 someone left propped up on the edge of the taxiway, and damaged the skin under the wing, near the wing tip. The plane was ferry'd to a nearby repair shop and they are re-skinning and painting that section of the wing, after inspecting the spar etc for damage. Insurance is paying that bill. 

My propeller was due for a 10 year overhaul (required in Canada) at the end of September, so I had the shop doing the wing work send it to a local prop shop. The prop (blades and hub) is original to the plane. It did not pass; the blades and hub are scrapped. 

So I have a few options: 

1. Used/overhauled McCauley C214

2. New McCauley C214 - to replace what I have on there

3. New Hartzell Top Prop Scimitar with STC

The prop shop is pricing out #'s 2 & # for me - in the meantime, I am looking to see if anyone has a used/overhauled C214 they are willing to part with? Please pm me or email at blaine_beaven[at]hotmail.com

Thanks!

Blaine

 

I don’t know were you’re from in Canada, but Aviation BL is the specialist in the Montreal area and has a very good reputation. Maybe they could steer you towards a new or used overhauled McCauley or Hartzell. I’m not related to them but did business a couple of times and I highlly recommend them. http://www.aviationbl.com/eng/index.html

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So you will lose about 20lbs of useful load?


Tom

I think less than that. Hartzell’s website says the Top Prop weighs 62-64lbs, and replaces the C214 that weighs 52.3-54.3.

If that’s accurate, it’s a 10lb weight gain. For an aircraft with a 1008lb useful load I won’t complain - especially to lose the RPM restriction and hopefully gain some speed.


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With the TopProp... you might get some weight saving options...

See if the blades are available in thick, thin, and composite versions...

Prices, and OH limitations may apply...

Best regards,

-a-

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15 hours ago, blaine beaven said:


Just over 1500 since last overhaul


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I changed my C212 (squared tip prop) to a top prop , I also changed the starter to a sky tech lightweight starter. That helped reduce the useful load loss. Something to consider if you still have the old bendix starter

Reason I asked for time since overhaul:

i had a lot of vibrations around 2300 rpm after changing to the top prop . Dynamic balancing helped some but not much. Hartzel was very helpful looking at vibration analysis etc. 

I lived with it for a while but over time the vibrations went away. My theory is that the engine has counterweights on the shaft but it took time for those to adjust to the new prop. I suppose it takes more time for the counterweights to adjust with a good old engine 

Curious to see if you experience the same 

 It was good to get rid of the yellow arc on the tach 

happy with it so far 

 

Edited by OR75
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I also noticed that the top prop has a different “pull patterns on takeoff

it seems less effective below @ 30 knots but more effective after that. 

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15 hours ago, blaine beaven said:


I think less than that. Hartzell’s website says the Top Prop weighs 62-64lbs, and replaces the C214 that weighs 52.3-54.3.

If that’s accurate, it’s a 10lb weight gain. For an aircraft with a 1008lb useful load I won’t complain - especially to lose the RPM restriction and hopefully gain some speed.


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IIRC, mine was about a 12 lbs gain

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41 minutes ago, OR75 said:

 

i had a lot of vibrations around 2300 rpm after changing to the top prop . 

That's interesting to hear.  A friend has an M20C with a Top Prop and it also has a lot more vibration to it than mine with a stock prop.  Especially around 2300 rpm.  I've recommended to him dynamic balancing, and hopefully that will help.

But I think you've convinced me to just keep the old style blades and hub when it comes time for me to get a new prop.

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1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

That's interesting to hear.  A friend has an M20C with a Top Prop and it also has a lot more vibration to it than mine with a stock prop.  Especially around 2300 rpm.  I've recommended to him dynamic balancing, and hopefully that will help.

But I think you've convinced me to just keep the old style blades and hub when it comes time for me to get a new prop.

Again, dynamic balancing did not help much.  But time did help (I know it is not like i got used to the vibrations) and I believe most engines on Mooneys have counterweights (certainly the IO-360-A3B6D does - that's what the 6 stands for)    

Overall, I am actually happy with the Top Prop and it will allow me to install an IO-390 at next engine overhaul 

 

Edited by OR75
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Last year at the IA refresher I attended a session on MT prop repair and overhaul. I loved the part about fixing stripped out aircraft quality lag screws by putting aircraft quality toothpicks in the holes before screwing in the wood screws.

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