NJMac Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 @Andy95W and his buddy Mark stopped by today in Marks 62C. It was great to meet some MSers and we had a great time. They even brought gifts with them. We got to looking over my logs for another purpose and it came to light that my very first airframe logbook is missing. Most likely a prior owner didn't have it and now I don't either. Andy and I thought it would be fun to see what the group here thinks that one missing log book will reduce, if anything, my plane's value. My E is a 64. The oldest logbook I have starts in 71 and are complete from then forward. I have it insured at $70k and would probably sell it for that if someone pressed me to do so. Is it now worth less since that first log book is AWOL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 1 Billion Dollars. But, no, really for that vintage I wouldn't worry much about it at all provided the FAA records are clean and all ADs are verified to have been complied with. In the intervening 40+ years everything that would have been in the first log is likely ironed out. Also, now that you're thinking about it, scan the logs and put them somewhere electronically that won't be damaged if your main log storage location is damaged. 1. They'll be useful if you ever sell. 2. They'll be a backup if another book goes missing. Edited August 28, 2019 by Steve W 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Do you have the FAA CD? That could fill in some of the major blanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 32 minutes ago, Steve W said: 1 Billion Dollars. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLJA Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 33 minutes ago, Yetti said: Do you have the FAA CD? That could fill in some of the major blanks. All the FAA CD gave me was the original bill of sale, registration application, and the letter of cancellation when it was exported to Canada. Nothing as far as log books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, GLJA said: All the FAA CD gave me was the original bill of sale, registration application, and the letter of cancellation when it was exported to Canada. Nothing as far as log books. In the US it will(should) have any filed 337s, STCs and similar documents. These are handy to see if there was anything 'major' done to the airframe during the missing time period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscalandro Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Let’s start by asking what makes you think your plane is 70k? Then work backwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLJA Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, Steve W said: In the US it will(should) have any filed 337s, STCs and similar documents. These are handy to see if there was anything 'major' done to the airframe during the missing time period. It was a US registered Plane N7771M. Purchased in Nov 1974, and exported in Dec 1975. I didn't pay much attention to the dates on the books, but now realize I"m missing the first journey log, and the rest of the books are intact from date of Import. FWIW, Here's what a new Mooney M20F cost in Nov of '74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 The only records you're really required to have are the Airworthiness Directive compliance history, and maintenance and inspection records going back a year or until they're superceded (e.g., when you do an oil change, you no longer need the record of the last oil change, even if it was less than a year ago). If you go to sell the airplane the total time on the airframe needs to be known. I assume you know TT from the existing records. So records missing prior to 1971 shouldn't be a big deal at all. The AD compliance history needs to be established at every annual, so you're probably good there. IMHO the lost value is $0. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, EricJ said: The only records you're really required to have are the Airworthiness Directive compliance history, and maintenance and inspection records going back a year or until they're superceded (e.g., when you do an oil change, you no longer need the record of the last oil change, even if it was less than a year ago). If you go to sell the airplane the total time on the airframe needs to be known. I assume you know TT from the existing records. So records missing prior to 1971 shouldn't be a big deal at all. The AD compliance history needs to be established at every annual, so you're probably good there. IMHO the lost value is $0. I'd disagree. When I tried to finance a purchase, I had a bank tell me they would not approve a loan on an aircraft that did not have its complete logbooks. I recall someone else on MS had a similar experience. On top of that, think of the value we place on good maintenance when it comes to buying aircraft. I full set of logs leaves a paper trail of that maintenance, and gives the buyer confidence in what has occurred. While not required by regulation, missing logbooks would lower the buyer's confidence and that would lower the buyer's willingness to purchase the aircraft. Likewise, missing logbooks are not the standard in the current market. I recall Mike Busch in one of his webinars suggesting lost logbooks could reduce the market value by about 30%. Granted, the value hit might be less than that if most of the logs are intact, so it may not be a black and white thing, but I'd argue missing the first logbook might lower the value by less than 30%, maybe 10-15%. Edited August 28, 2019 by jaylw314 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Disagree. The first few years out of 50 should mean little to most buyer. Having the last 40 years along with the FAA 337 records will suffice for most buyers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Records missing before 1971? Repairs or work from fifty years ago or more is hardly relevant to the current state of the aircraft. Just IMHO. Even having records is no guarantee of accuracy or relevance of the entries. I suspect most aircraft of our vintage have had so much undocumented work done to them over the years that the actual records are a pale resemblance to the reality that sits on the ramp. IMHO the "value" of old logbooks is there mostly due just to the tribal "wisdom" that people keep claiming that there is value there. If your buyer is of that opinion, then it might have an affect. A smart buyer might leverage this fact to convince a seller that missing logs diminish the value and then run away with a cheaper airplane, but I don't really see any other purpose to the notion. It's cool to have the history for nostalgic purposes, but I really can't see any practical value to logs of that age missing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted August 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Yetti said: Do you have the FAA CD? That could fill in some of the major blanks. No. As I was telling Andy, this is my first plane and I just don’t know if these inns and outs of the ownership parade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted August 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, chriscalandro said: Let’s start by asking what makes you think your plane is 70k? Then work backwards. Honestly when I first insured it, I told the broker what it had on it and he started rattling off this was worth that much, three blades worth so much and told me it booked in their eyes at that point. Since then I’ve added an aspen and had weep no more seal the tanks. Jimmy said $65k sight unseen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 IMO, not a whole lot. You have the last overhaul. Probably most of the upgrades are included. As long as there aren't any crazy major repairs that were in the first book, but even then, it's been nearly 5 decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 /\ | That 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 When planes leave the US for Canada, the original logs are only useful to fill out the import paperwork and start Canadian logs. Most times the US logs are put somewhere safe, meaning they get lost or tossed out, at least in non-turbine aircraft. When it comes back in into the US, the DAR examines the Canadian certificate of export, and a US mechanic starts new us logs. Then the Canadian logs become useless. Crossing borders with planes is like starting from new every time. Anyone experienced with the import export business knows that the paperwork trail starts at the moment of import, so they don't place much value on previous paperwork. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 hour ago, NJMac said: No. As I was telling Andy, this is my first plane and I just don’t know if these inns and outs of the ownership parade It's $10 for the CD from the FAA of everything that they have on your airplane. It will include registration changes, filed 337s (for STCs and major alterations or repairs), etc. Well worth it just to have electronic copies and see the history.https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 The first pages have some interesting details from just before leaving the factory... If something important happened during the time frame... big like ‘left wing replaced’... you would want to know by whom with what... As far as lowering the price... this is in line with making it harder to sell... what other similar plane is nearby for sale... If the guy with the highest offer, wants a no DH airframe, And is willing to pay for it.... this will be missing the easy document to show that... the PPI can cover the rest... So, if you have a NDH plane, it is best to have all the docs to support it... And if the guy buying it likes the modern instrument panel, the plane passes his PPI... who cares what oil was put in the first engine that has been replaced twice already...? This won’t be much of an issue until the economy hits the skids again.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 The 1st 10 yrs wouldn't bother me a bit on a 50+ year old airplane, the past 10 yrs would take a very thorough pre-by AND an annual before I would consider a purchase which would have to be at a discount. I'll go out on a limb and say there isn't a set of 50 year old logs that haven't been pencil whipped in one way or the other. Just helped remove and open up a set wood spared Citabria wings, we knew it had a wing tip repaired that wasn't in the logs, once opened the first 3 inboard ribs one each wing had an FAA/PMA stamp with a date of June 12 2001, also with no reference in the logs. In my opinion logbooks are a good place to start but entries and/or repair found need to be worked backwards which is very time consuming 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscalandro Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 7 hours ago, NJMac said: Honestly when I first insured it, I told the broker what it had on it and he started rattling off this was worth that much, three blades worth so much and told me it booked in their eyes at that point. Since then I’ve added an aspen and had weep no more seal the tanks. Jimmy said $65k sight unseen I wouldn’t consider tank sealing a value added or upgrade procedure. There are airplanes with original sealant that don’t leak and airplanes with newer sealant that do. It’s good to know when it was done but at the end of the day the value is in if it leaks or not, not when it was last sealed. What is tsmoh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 12 hours ago, GLJA said: It was a US registered Plane N7771M. Purchased in Nov 1974, and exported in Dec 1975. I didn't pay much attention to the dates on the books, but now realize I"m missing the first journey log, and the rest of the books are intact from date of Import. FWIW, Here's what a new Mooney M20F cost in Nov of '74 The journey log book is little value, as long as you have the US log books for the airframe and the Canadian airframe log books since the import you’re fine. If you sold your plane to the US they don’t use journey log books any way. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, chriscalandro said: I wouldn’t consider tank sealing a value added or upgrade procedure. There are airplanes with original sealant that don’t leak and airplanes with newer sealant that do. It’s good to know when it was done but at the end of the day the value is in if it leaks or not, not when it was last sealed. What is tsmoh? Jimmy Garrison used to have it listed as a $1000 valuation upgrade. So, not a major game changer, but some. --edit, nevermind, I was thinking bladders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted August 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 8 hours ago, chriscalandro said: What is tsmoh? Roughly 500 hrs at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 I'm missing some very early logbooks and am not overly concerned about tit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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