Transition to ICAO flight plans

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I good example would be the Mt Shasta area between California and Oregon.  At some point you get handed off from Oakland Center to Seattle Center, but at least once I've had to go back and let them know I couldn't pick up the next center on the radio yet.  They could probably see me on radar, but with flight following they'd only know my destination, not necessarily the exact route I'd fly, so it's reassuring to know there's a backup if radio or radar contact (or both) are lost...

There's a radar coverage gap around Ft. Jones at lower altitudes.

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, gsengle said:

Not sure I’d count portable equipment...

 

You shouldn't.

[Yooper Rocketman]

29 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I used to file VFR until I started getting phone calls and notices from the destination ramp folks to call FSS after the previous FSS office failed to forward my delayed departure time, or some other system screw-up that became an annoyance.   It started happening to me with enough regularity that the easy solution, rather than finding out SAR had been looking for me already on some flight, was to just stop filing when VFR.   Kinda didn't like that solution, but at the time it seemed the most practical.

I had the same problems.  Even when updating them on delays they would be looking for me before I even landed.  

My favorite was getting a third of the way across Lake Michigan, where I really needed the safety of radio contact, and they would call me with “radar services terminated, squawk VFR”.  REALLY?

Getting the rating and filing IFR ended that problem!!!

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Remember, in the "Other info" field, you should also put in "CODE/" followed by your aircraft's mode S code in HEX format

The "Other" field is optional. The FAA document does say to do as you state, but I've never done it in Foreflight or Leidos and I've never had a IFR or VFR flight plan rejected for this.

Skip

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'm pretty sure ADS-B In is independent of the information you give to Flight Service.  The ADS-B ground network sends you TIS-B traffic based on the signal in your transponder broadcast--if you go to your transponder setup menu, there should be an option to tell ATC whether you are ADS-B In capable through UAT, 1090ES or both.  If there is an option to pick both, don't do it--only pick one or the other, or else ATC will not send you any TIS-B traffic since they assume you will be able to pick up other ADS-B aircraft air-to-air. 

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/not-always-seeing-ads-b-rebroadcast-traffic.109409/

Once you get airborne, you are correct that the transponder self identifies with the capabilities set in the configuration.

However, I think your understanding (or maybe mine) of TIS-B may be faulty.

ADS-B traffic is traffic that your receiver picks up directly from other ADS-B OUT equipped traffic.

ADS-R traffic is traffic that the system sends out to you if you can only receive on one system.  That is, if you can only receive UAT traffic, ADS-R will send you data on 1090 traffic but it will send it to you via UAT so you can receive it.

TIS-B traffic is non-ADS-B traffic that you can't see regardless of your ADS-B reciever.  That would be Mode C or S traffic without ADS-B.  So even if your transponder reports it can receive both UAT and 1090, the system should still send you TIS-B.

If you set your system up to report that it can only receive 1090 for example, but you can really receiver UAT too, I'm thinking you might risk the chance of getting some targets double reported.  You'll get the one that your equipment gets via ADS-B and also one from ADS-R.

[Bob - S50]

30 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The "Other" field is optional. The FAA document does say to do as you state, but I've never done it in Foreflight or Leidos and I've never had a IFR or VFR flight plan rejected for this.

Skip

Yes, at least for now.  However, here is a quote from John Collins over on Beechtalk.  He is generally very accurate:

"ERAM does care if you have ADS-B Out specified and SUR/ and CODE/ specified in field 18. But it will not cause a flight plan rejection if they are not specified. I can see some benefit to specifying SUR/260B for 1090ES or SUR/282B for UAT, as these designate that the the installed ADS-B Out system is 2020 compliant and can be used where routing may require ADS-B Out. It might be needed in the future to file into or out of rule airspace, but currently it only helps on routes where radar coverage may not exist or is out of service. Flight plans provide the capability indication before the flight, so can affect clearances. Once underway, the equipment self identifies its capabilities and compliance information.

I have been told by the FAA ERAM specialist that specifying the CODE/ is of value to ERAM, but the only rational offered has been that it affects transponder code assignments, as these are limited resources in ERAM and duplicates occur in different airspace. These values are 6 character hex codes using the characters A-F and 0 to 9. You can look up the CODE/ value in the FAA registry in the "Mode S Code (base 16 / hex)" field and it has a one to one relationship with the N number. All US registry aircraft are assigned codes in the block A00000 to AFFFFF. Just search on your N number in the FAA registry."

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

I read the thread over on POA and I'm trying to wrap my brain around it. So my Stratux picks up both UAT and 1090ES. My GTX 335 broadcasts 1090ES. I should have the settings on the GTX 335 set to only show ADS-B In capable for 1090ES so that the UAT that the ground station is receiving is rebroadcast to me on the 1090ES? Am I understanding this correctly?

Since your Stratux can pick up both, my personal opinion is that you should have the 335 set to show you can receive both UAT and 1090.  That will prevent you from getting ADS-B AND ADS-R reports on the same traffic.  With it set to show you can receive both, the only traffic the ground system should send you would be TIS-B (non-ADS-B) traffic.

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Yes, at least for now.  However, here is a quote from John Collins over on Beechtalk.  He is generally very accurate:

"ERAM does care if you have ADS-B Out specified and SUR/ and CODE/ specified in field 18. But it will not cause a flight plan rejection if they are not specified. I can see some benefit to specifying SUR/260B for 1090ES or SUR/282B for UAT, as these designate that the the installed ADS-B Out system is 2020 compliant and can be used where routing may require ADS-B Out. It might be needed in the future to file into or out of rule airspace, but currently it only helps on routes where radar coverage may not exist or is out of service. Flight plans provide the capability indication before the flight, so can affect clearances. Once underway, the equipment self identifies its capabilities and compliance information.

I have been told by the FAA ERAM specialist that specifying the CODE/ is of value to ERAM, but the only rational offered has been that it affects transponder code assignments, as these are limited resources in ERAM and duplicates occur in different airspace. These values are 6 character hex codes using the characters A-F and 0 to 9. You can look up the CODE/ value in the FAA registry in the "Mode S Code (base 16 / hex)" field and it has a one to one relationship with the N number. All US registry aircraft are assigned codes in the block A00000 to AFFFFF. Just search on your N number in the FAA registry."

Of course, FAA maintains the aircraft registry database and could look them up by N number during flight plan processing if it really needs the info. But hey, why not make us do the data entry for them.

[PT20J]

12 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Since your Stratux can pick up both, my personal opinion is that you should have the 335 set to show you can receive both UAT and 1090.  That will prevent you from getting ADS-B AND ADS-R reports on the same traffic.  With it set to show you can receive both, the only traffic the ground system should send you would be TIS-B (non-ADS-B) traffic.

The GTX 335 is 1090ES ADS-B Out only

[Bob - S50]

20 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Of course, FAA maintains the aircraft registry database and could look them up by N number during flight plan processing if it really needs the info. But hey, why not make us do the data entry for them.

It's not that hard.  You enter the data once and save it.  From then on, whatever system you are using to file flightplans does it automatically for you.

[gsengle]

It's not that hard.  You enter the data once and save it.  From then on, whatever system you are using to file flightplans does it automatically for you.

Also this is global not just FAA...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob - S50]

12 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The GTX 335 is 1090ES ADS-B Out only

Yes it is.  But if he reports no ADS-B IN capability (which his Stratux gives him) he will not get TIS-B (mode C and S) traffic unless he happens to be close enough to some other aircraft that IS reporting IN capability.  Pretty hit and miss.  He'll only see other aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.  Depending on where you live and fly, you may be missing quite a bit of traffic information.

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

It's not that hard.  You enter the data once and save it.  From then on, whatever system you are using to file flightplans does it automatically for you.

Right up until you need a pop up and ATC asks for your equipment . . . . "Slant Golf" is all I can remember, no idea how to even find all that other stuff the first time. 430W, Mode C, VOR with glideslope, VOR without glideslope. None of that messy ADS-B equipment.

Ditto on VFR flight plans. The last one I opened was as a student pilot in early 2007. Almost always on Flight Following. Looks like my next IPC will be a little more in-depth; I've seen enough announcements and timetables for flight plan conversion be an ounced and cancelled that I quit paying attention to them.

And yes, I've needed a pop up for real, on a simple 30nm breakfast run. Destination reported clear before departure, but wasn't on arrival. Quick pop ups stacked three of us in a hold while #1 was cleared in. We all made it, just took a few extra minutes. CAVU going hime after eating . . . .

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Right up until you need a pop up and ATC asks for your equipment . . . . "Slant Golf" is all I can remember, no idea how to even find all that other stuff the first time. 430W, Mode C, VOR with glideslope, VOR without glideslope. None of that messy ADS-B equipment.

Ditto on VFR flight plans. The last one I opened was as a student pilot in early 2007. Almost always on Flight Following. Looks like my next IPC will be a little more in-depth; I've seen enough announcements and timetables for flight plan conversion be an ounced and cancelled that I quit paying attention to them.

And yes, I've needed a pop up for real, on a simple 30nm breakfast run. Destination reported clear before departure, but wasn't on arrival. Quick pop ups stacked three of us in a hold while #1 was cleared in. We all made it, just took a few extra minutes. CAVU going hime after eating . . . .

From the talk on BeechTalk, it seems you won't need all that info for a pop up clearance.  Worst case you have to call Flight Service.  Every time I give them a call they already know my tail number.  Since I use 1-800-WxBrief when I file, they already have all my info.  Not saying it isn't a PITA, but we'll get used to it.

I know some of my stuff but if it becomes a problem I can put the rest of it on a piece of paper and keep it in my flight bag or save it as part of a contact in my phone.

[gsxrpilot]

I've learned a few new tricks living here in Denver. 

1. The flight levels are not as far away and therefore used more regularly.
2. That requires IFR.
3. File the IFR flight plan on ForeFlight. (I knew that part already)
4. When calling Ground tell them you DON"T want to open your flight plan. Rather you'll open it with Center if needed.
5. Take off VFR and get clear of the Bravo and up to 17,500 or so using your own routing.
6. Contact Center and open the IFR flight plan and climb into the flight levels. 

This saves being given a long circuitous departure and a slow step climb to altitude. Once at 17,500, the exchange with Center was one request, and an immediate response of...

"Cleared too... climb and maintain FL2?0"

[ilovecornfields]

14 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've learned a few new tricks living here in Denver. 

1. The flight levels are not as far away and therefore used more regularly.
2. That requires IFR.
3. File the IFR flight plan on ForeFlight. (I knew that part already)
4. When calling Ground tell them you DON"T want to open your flight plan. Rather you'll open it with Center if needed.
5. Take off VFR and get clear of the Bravo and up to 17,500 or so using your own routing.
6. Contact Center and open the IFR flight plan and climb into the flight levels. 

This saves being given a long circuitous departure and a slow step climb to altitude. Once at 17,500, the exchange with Center was one request, and an immediate response of...

"Cleared too... climb and maintain FL2?0"

Do you ever file IFR and put “VFR climb to XYZ” in the comments? I use that pretty frequently when I’m flying to LA or SF and want to be IFR but it’s VFR at my departure. Can save a few minutes to skip the SID and do my own routing for the climb.

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Yes it is.  But if he reports no ADS-B IN capability (which his Stratux gives him) he will not get TIS-B (mode C and S) traffic unless he happens to be close enough to some other aircraft that IS reporting IN capability.  Pretty hit and miss.  He'll only see other aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.  Depending on where you live and fly, you may be missing quite a bit of traffic information.

Are you suggesting the parameters you file in your ICAO flight plan determines what ADS-B traffic is received? This isn't true. What you recieve from ADS-B/R comes entirely based on the data packet your transponder is transmitting. Your transponder or UAT is sending out parameters that say if you can recieve ADB-IN on 1090 or 978. So what you put in to your ICAO flight plan is totally independent of that. As mentioned your ICAO flight plan info should be based on installed equipment, not portable equipment.  Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[jaylw314]

7 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Once you get airborne, you are correct that the transponder self identifies with the capabilities set in the configuration.

However, I think your understanding (or maybe mine) of TIS-B may be faulty.

ADS-B traffic is traffic that your receiver picks up directly from other ADS-B OUT equipped traffic.

ADS-R traffic is traffic that the system sends out to you if you can only receive on one system.  That is, if you can only receive UAT traffic, ADS-R will send you data on 1090 traffic but it will send it to you via UAT so you can receive it.

TIS-B traffic is non-ADS-B traffic that you can't see regardless of your ADS-B reciever.  That would be Mode C or S traffic without ADS-B.  So even if your transponder reports it can receive both UAT and 1090, the system should still send you TIS-B.

If you set your system up to report that it can only receive 1090 for example, but you can really receiver UAT too, I'm thinking you might risk the chance of getting some targets double reported.  You'll get the one that your equipment gets via ADS-B and also one from ADS-R.

Thanks for the clarification on TIS-B vs ADS-R, I incorrectly conflated the two

However, I'd still maintain what you put on your Flight Service flight plan has no bearing on how the system functions--that is solely based on the settings of your transponder.

[Yooper Rocketman]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've learned a few new tricks living here in Denver. 

1. The flight levels are not as far away and therefore used more regularly.
2. That requires IFR.
3. File the IFR flight plan on ForeFlight. (I knew that part already)
4. When calling Ground tell them you DON"T want to open your flight plan. Rather you'll open it with Center if needed.
5. Take off VFR and get clear of the Bravo and up to 17,500 or so using your own routing.
6. Contact Center and open the IFR flight plan and climb into the flight levels. 

This saves being given a long circuitous departure and a slow step climb to altitude. Once at 17,500, the exchange with Center was one request, and an immediate response of...

"Cleared too... climb and maintain FL2?0"

Paul,

In 15 years, when you take custody of my Lancair,  you'll see that problem a lot less (step climbs and level offs).  Once they see 4,000' a minute, or 250 knots when they level you,  you'll get moved up and out pretty quick.  (grin).  The most common challenge is getting an initial climb to 2,000' above the airport and not getting turned over to departure quick enough.  Once they've seen me a few times, I get sent to departure while the gear is getting stowed.

Tom

[Yooper Rocketman]

BTW,  this was a great topic to bring up reminding everyone to check how they are filing, even those of us that have been filing ICAO Flight Plans for a while.  I went in and checked all the planes I fly for accuracy of my data, and found several minor mistakes I was able to correct.  

Tom

[Bob - S50]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

Are you suggesting the parameters you file in your ICAO flight plan determines what ADS-B traffic is received? This isn't true. What you recieve from ADS-B/R comes entirely based on the data packet your transponder is transmitting. Your transponder or UAT is sending out parameters that say if you can recieve ADB-IN on 1090 or 978. So what you put in to your ICAO flight plan is totally independent of that. As mentioned your ICAO flight plan info should be based on installed equipment, not portable equipment.  Or am I misunderstanding your point?

No.  I'm saying if he configures his GTX335 to report exactly what it is, 1090 OUT only, the system will not send him reports.  If he configures it to say he has IN capability, which he has with his Stratux, he'll get traffic.

But I now agree that he should probably file EB1.  That tells the system he is ADS-B compliant.

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

In 15 years, when you take custody of my Lancair

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

No.  I'm saying if he configures his GTX335 to report exactly what it is, 1090 OUT only, the system will not send him reports.  If he configures it to say he has IN capability, which he has with his Stratux, he'll get traffic.

But I now agree that he should probably file EB1.  That tells the system he is ADS-B compliant.

OK, now I understand your point 

[1964-M20E]

Well heck I fur sure say we should just keep the old flight plan system when flying here in the good ole US of A.

Seriously I do think for flights inside the US (international is different) we should be able to continue to use the standard flight plan that has been in use for many years, but that plane has already taken off.

I tried ICAO plans a while back and had issues.  I went back to the ICAO plans in the last few weeks especially when using Leidos on my phone it forced me to go ICAO.  Seems issues have gone asway especially leaving or going to an airport that dis not start with a K.

 

 

[GLJA]

Attached is what my Instructor gave me during my PPL. Hope it helps. 

Completion of ICAO Flight Plan.pdf