jetdriven Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, tigers2007 said: Time to assemble a CB-class emergency raft kit. I already have my eBay acquired life vests. Raft is $10-50, inflator $15+, used ACR PLB $65-150, dye & streamer kits $5-25, mirror $10, duffel bag $1-5. I’ll need to get authorization and approval from Raptor though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Just buy a real offshore rated raft. Or you can rent mine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, donkaye said: I'm old enough to think that it would be pretty difficult to hoodwink me. His last extensive post was persuasive to me that his situation was not intentional. It certainly got me thinking, though. I'm often out at least 10 miles off the coast practicing approaches into both Monterey and Watsonwille. ATC tries to get you down to 2,000 feet before intercept on the Monterey ILS. Same with the Watsonville GPS 2 approach. I also request to remain at 3,000 feet, but I don't think even that would work most of the time. And often it is IMC in both locations. It's time to revisit doing those approaches without overwater gear. I do carry 2 PLBs no matter where I go, but it is time to look into a more comprehensive set of overwater equipment even for slight overwater traverses. For things like that the PLB and an Onyx manual inflatable lifevest for 60 bucks probably will get you by Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, TheTurtle said: only thing odd to me was lost power at 3000agl and only had 45seconds before hitting the water. did he point the nose straight down or do bo's really glide like shit? Reminds me that I should go out and check the sink rate at best glide. He said wind from west which is pretty standard out here. so if he was pointing back towards shore when the engine quit and with 10:1 glide he should have gotten about 5 miles. How far offshore at 3000 AGL was he? I get panicy just going offshore of Camp Pendelton enough to avoid the restricted area. Yes the math doesn’t add up but a few things to consider here: 1) in a crisis situation ones sense and recollection of time can be very skewed. 2) I know we’ve all practiced engine out failures but in a rush to get the plane restarted (especially when it’s not a simulation), the likelihood that you will not maintain best glide when troubleshooting is high. 3) He could have referring to the time after he stopped restart attempts and was committed to the water landing. just food for thought. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said: Bet you have never been out at sea though in those temps, 80 degrees with a nice force 4 blowing at you for 5 hours. Hmm you would be dead. From where he said they were flying, the water temp looked to be in the 58-65 dF range unlike the 85+ down in the Gulf of Mexico around Gulf Shores. Not much fun at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 In a perfect world, Sully would have made it back to JFK. You train for all, hope for the best, but one does not really know until you've been there or it happens! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 23, 2019 Report Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, TheTurtle said: only thing odd to me was lost power at 3000agl and only had 45seconds before hitting the water. did he point the nose straight down or do bo's really glide like shit? Reminds me that I should go out and check the sink rate at best glide. He said wind from west which is pretty standard out here. so if he was pointing back towards shore when the engine quit and with 10:1 glide he should have gotten about 5 miles. How far offshore at 3000 AGL was he? I get panicy just going offshore of Camp Pendelton enough to avoid the restricted area. To add to what @Davidv said... He was watching the other plane as they were in formation, (the other a Cessna 182 shooting pictures of the Bo), this would have meant a couple of things.. They were slow, not a cruise speed at all, but slow to match the speed of the C182. We fly formation with the Mooneys at 115 or 120 knots. I'm sure they were slow as well. He wasn't aware of where he was in relation to the shore. The Lead plane is responsible for navigation. He admitted he wouldn't have been so low and far from shore if he'd been navigating. I'm sure it took a few seconds to realize what was happening, a few more to get oriented towards shore, a few more of disbelief, and now you've got 1500 out of your 3000 left to work with. That's the scenario that sounds plausible to me... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/22/2019 at 11:03 AM, Oldguy said: Life vests are meant to be worn when flying over water. Yes, they only take a short time to put on, but you do not know how much time you have when you ditch because... Yup, purchased used scuba vests with blowup tubes off Craigslist for $10 each before my first flight over real water and wore them. (They threw in free swim fins, but I don't carry those.) However, I couldn't find a cheap PLB. If anyone is selling a used ResQLink+, I'm interested. On 8/22/2019 at 11:15 AM, tigers2007 said: I'm waiting for the media to recklessly grab his pilot certificate information and portray that "he has only been a pilot since 2018". I hate it when they associate certificate date with the date that a person started to fly. That halfway explains an odd email I recently received from a CFI last week stating "When was your private pilot checkride? I see a date in my files of 9/19/18. Is that correct?" (Nope, not even close.) Do you have a pointer to an explanation and a way to correct it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 There were a few clues... that were not recognizable to the ordinary Bo pilot... What MS does... curate lots of experience, and display it for everyone to read... at your leasure... leisure, but mispronounced... When reading the BT post that DavidV graciously posted.... It sounded a lot like an experience that our world circling M20K, had recently... If you all remember the last Mooney to circumnavigate the globe... picked up some bad fuel somewhere near New Zealand... the fuel had been strained as it was loaded into the plane... but the straining wasn’t effective enough... as the plane flew out over the water, the fuel system started misbehaving... a decision to perform a 180, land and do some research followed.... Briefly, as crud starts to block the fuel strainers and screens.... the fuel pressure readings start to get flaky... then the fuel flow starts to get flaky.... then injectors start to get flaky... when your tanks have crud in them... There is no crud magnet that draws all the unknown crud to the sump... the sumps are designed to separate water out... some times some heavy dirt particles will settle there... Using just one paragraph in the pilot’s own words... you don’t need to be an engineer to recognize what is happening... but it does help to have a lot of MS experience... 1) First sign of something wrong... misdiagnosed, and decided it was normal... The next morning during my preflight I had to sump each tank 4-5 times to get to clear gas (lots of flakey black sediment in the fuel). I noted this as being more than usual, but nothing to be alarmed of since we all see stuff in our fuel from time to time and I did get to clear fuel after a few sumps. 2) Second sign... ignored and flew on...We then flew to Monterey and then to a small grass strip on the coast. During a few points in those flights, the fuel flow became unstable. 3) Third sign... actively coming up with a fix for a real problem... unfortunately the problem continues getting worse turning the boost pump on low. This was unusual, but not alarming 1) Known crud drifting in the tanks... 2) Unstable fuel flow... 3) More fuel pressure needed to feed the engine... 4) Fourth sign... accepting a bad situation... any TT to go with that? from what I have been told about these Bonanzas, particularly the TN's. Looks like we get a lot of detail out of this one accident... 1) Be ready for the engine to stop... 2) When flying over water, have proper flotation devices for the environment... 3) Set up for a good landing on the water... 4) Transition Training tells a pilot a lot about the plane... stuff you probably won’t be able to recognize on your own... Some things will be really obvious to a TT CFII... That has lots of experience in many of the same type of plane... 5) Share the details... it is quite possible that somebody else will recognize signs that are less obvious to an ordinary Private Pilot... I didn’t read any of the rest of the details, just what DavidV posted here... Sure the bo pilot could have done better... he just didn’t recognize the early stages of mechanical failures... That’s why we have insurance... if we all had to be mechanics and engineers to fly, very few of us would be here... Best regards, -a- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 “ if we all had to be mechanics and engineers to fly, very few of us would be here” I am both of those things, and I think about all those little parts on my airplane on every flight...... and how one of those little parts can ruin the day!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueOne Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 8 hours ago, Oldguy said: From where he said they were flying, the water temp looked to be in the 58-65 dF range unlike the 85+ down in the Gulf of Mexico around Gulf Shores. Not much fun at all. Did someone say Danger Zone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueOne Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, carusoam said: There were a few clues... that were not recognizable to the ordinary Bo pilot... What MS does... curate lots of experience, and display it for everyone to read... at your leasure... leisure, but mispronounced... When reading the BT post that DavidV graciously posted.... It sounded a lot like an experience that our world circling M20K, had recently... If you all remember the last Mooney to circumnavigate the globe... picked up some bad fuel somewhere near New Zealand... the fuel had been strained as it was loaded into the plane... but the straining wasn’t effective enough... as the plane flew out over the water, the fuel system started misbehaving... a decision to perform a 180, land and do some research followed.... Briefly, as crud starts to block the fuel strainers and screens.... the fuel pressure readings start to get flaky... then the fuel flow starts to get flaky.... then injectors start to get flaky... when your tanks have crud in them... There is no crud magnet that draws all the unknown crud to the sump... the sumps are designed to separate water out... some times some heavy dirt particles will settle there... Using just one paragraph in the pilot’s own words... you don’t need to be an engineer to recognize what is happening... but it does help to have a lot of MS experience... 1) First sign of something wrong... misdiagnosed, and decided it was normal... The next morning during my preflight I had to sump each tank 4-5 times to get to clear gas (lots of flakey black sediment in the fuel). I noted this as being more than usual, but nothing to be alarmed of since we all see stuff in our fuel from time to time and I did get to clear fuel after a few sumps. 2) Second sign... ignored and flew on...We then flew to Monterey and then to a small grass strip on the coast. During a few points in those flights, the fuel flow became unstable. 3) Third sign... actively coming up with a fix for a real problem... unfortunately the problem continues getting worse turning the boost pump on low. This was unusual, but not alarming 1) Known crud drifting in the tanks... 2) Unstable fuel flow... 3) More fuel pressure needed to feed the engine... 4) Fourth sign... accepting a bad situation... any TT to go with that? from what I have been told about these Bonanzas, particularly the TN's. Looks like we get a lot of detail out of this one accident... 1) Be ready for the engine to stop... 2) When flying over water, have proper flotation devices for the environment... 3) Set up for a good landing on the water... 4) Transition Training tells a pilot a lot about the plane... stuff you probably won’t be able to recognize on your own... Some things will be really obvious to a TT CFII... That has lots of experience in many of the same type of plane... 5) Share the details... it is quite possible that somebody else will recognize signs that are less obvious to an ordinary Private Pilot... I didn’t read any of the rest of the details, just what DavidV posted here... Sure the bo pilot could have done better... he just didn’t recognize the early stages of mechanical failures... That’s why we have insurance... if we all had to be mechanics and engineers to fly, very few of us would be here... Best regards, -a- I would submit that there are MANY teachable moments in this scenario, but ultimately if you fly over water...especially cold water why not have a raft and minimally a PFD with an inflator? What is your life worth? Edited August 24, 2019 by RogueOne 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted August 24, 2019 Report Share Posted August 24, 2019 9 hours ago, RogueOne said: I would submit that there are MANY teachable moments in this scenario, but ultimately if you fly over water...especially cold water why not have a raft and minimally a PFD with an inflator? What is your life worth? PLBs are cheap as well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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