IO-360-A1A cracked case

[zaitcev]

Yes, it's yet another case crack on IO-360. This one is on the left side out in front, in the area that narrows towards the propeller.

So, the question is, what are my options? My mechanic says he knows someone who owns a salvage yard and may be able to find a suitable half case. But what happens after that? I have to find someone who can disassemble the whole engine and then assemble it back, correct?

Also, what are chances that the something else crops up once we get the engine apart?

[RLCarter]

Aren't the cases matched?

[takair]

Depends on a bunch of things.  How many hours since last overhaul, who did it, etc?  When was it done, how often is it flown?  Tell us more about how this was discovered?  You had a previous crack?  Were cylinders improperly torqued, prop strike?  U fortunately the tear down sounds inevitable if the crack exceeds limits.

[carusoam]

Start with a pic...

How Bad is the crack?  Has the mechanic deemed it not AW? Is it leaking a quart of oil hourly?

...then expect to keep all options open....

 

How many hours on the engine?

relatively new... swap out or weld the case half.

already near 2k hrs... plan an OH...

 

PP thoughts only, see if you can supply some details...

best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

Buy a new case from lycoming. Depending on the times of all other components, possibly overhaul. 

All of the old cases from divco will crack again. I’ve been through 2 cracked cases. I’ve never heard of 1/2 a case. They are line bored together. 

My Next crack is a new case too. Way to much time and effort fixing cases. Money ahead buying a new case. Prices I’m told are more than half of what they used to be. 

-Matt

[cliffy]

Good answers above-

How many hours on the engine?

How many cylinder overhauls on them?

How long since last overhaul?

Is the crack with in any limits set by Lycoming to continue to run? 

What are your plans for the future? Keep the airplane forever? Sell in a couple of years? This repair has consequences each way. 

All these need to be answered before a good path can be found

Cases are matched to each other, they are "line bored" for the cam bearings and the crank bearings. Can't just toss a different case half in the mix. 

Now your decision is to either go "repair" or "overhaul" If you have less than 1,000 hrs on the overhaul and its been less than 5 or 6 years since it was overhauled you can just repair it. Get a good case, measure all the pieces that move and if they meet ""serviceable" limits, reassemble and run. This is done all the time for prop strikes. 

Now if you are past half life on overhaul then you might be money ahead to do a full overhaul. Usually "overhaul" brings internal limits on fit to "new engine" standards AND it requires a complete run in (can be done on the airplane) following the factory program USING CALIBRATED INSTRUMENTS. This is a big point missed by many. If your engine gauges in the airplane haven't been out and their accuracy checked (calibrated) with in the last year, you can't run the engine after overhaul in the airplane and call it an "overhaul". Its still only a repair, time continuing, Its a glitch in the way the Feds view the definitions on what constitutes an overhaul and Lycoming specifies "calibrated instruments" for an 'Overhaul Run In Procedure. Overhaul shop test cell gauges are (should be) calibrated every year. Did you know that "technically" even your A&Ps tools are required to be "in calibration" to use them? Say, his torque wrench :-)

The engine has the same work done to it but the run in is classified different. 

Its always a crap shoot when the engine is opened up. You can get lucky or shoot craps (snake eyes) and find more work but if you find more work inside, just consider yourself lucky that you found it now and not at 10,000'

[Tcraft938]

Your response intrigued me regarding if the engine is run/broken in on the airplane and whether that constitutes a break-in or repair.  I picked up my overhauled to new limits engine from the overhaul shop.  I have an engine logbook entry that it was run in an approved test cell for 3.4 hrs.  There is documentation that explains the test cell and dates of calibration/approval of the cell.  Also in the book is a page of data of the various instrument parameters during the run which I found interesting and a bit above my knowledge base.  Three pages of "in the airplane break-in instructions".  

So based on your info and others, I guess I'm glad I went the route I did rather than the guy that wanted me to order parts and he would "slap it together for ya".  In the end the difference in price was not drastic and much better warranty on the workmanship.  

[jetdriven]

8 hours ago, cliffy said:

Good answers above-

How many hours on the engine?

How many cylinder overhauls on them?

How long since last overhaul?

Is the crack with in any limits set by Lycoming to continue to run? 

What are your plans for the future? Keep the airplane forever? Sell in a couple of years? This repair has consequences each way. 

All these need to be answered before a good path can be found

Cases are matched to each other, they are "line bored" for the cam bearings and the crank bearings. Can't just toss a different case half in the mix. 

Now your decision is to either go "repair" or "overhaul" If you have less than 1,000 hrs on the overhaul and its been less than 5 or 6 years since it was overhauled you can just repair it. Get a good case, measure all the pieces that move and if they meet ""serviceable" limits, reassemble and run. This is done all the time for prop strikes. 

Now if you are past half life on overhaul then you might be money ahead to do a full overhaul. Usually "overhaul" brings internal limits on fit to "new engine" standards AND it requires a complete run in (can be done on the airplane) following the factory program USING CALIBRATED INSTRUMENTS. This is a big point missed by many. If your engine gauges in the airplane haven't been out and their accuracy checked (calibrated) with in the last year, you can't run the engine after overhaul in the airplane and call it an "overhaul". Its still only a repair, time continuing, Its a glitch in the way the Feds view the definitions on what constitutes an overhaul and Lycoming specifies "calibrated instruments" for an 'Overhaul Run In Procedure. Overhaul shop test cell gauges are (should be) calibrated every year. Did you know that "technically" even your A&Ps tools are required to be "in calibration" to use them? Say, his torque wrench :-)

The engine has the same work done to it but the run in is classified different. 

Its always a crap shoot when the engine is opened up. You can get lucky or shoot craps (snake eyes) and find more work but if you find more work inside, just consider yourself lucky that you found it now and not at 10,000'

My factory engine sticker said overhauled even though it wasn’t yet installed with the “new hoses and calibrated instruments”. I’m not sure they can enforce a SB240a and rescind the overhaul log entry.  
Also any new case From Lycoming is going to be made for roller lifters. you’ll need roller lifters and a roller cam that’s about another four grand.

[N201MKTurbo]

It depends if you have a narrow deck or a wide deck case. If you have a narrow deck case, you better hope Divco can weld it because there are no new or used cases anywhere. You will have to upgrade to a wide deck case which means new cylinders. You might as well look for a used engine.

[cliffy]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

My factory engine sticker said overhauled even though it wasn’t yet installed with the “new hoses and calibrated instruments”. I’m not sure they can enforce a SB240a and rescind the overhaul log entry.  
Also any new case From Lycoming is going to be made for roller lifters. you’ll need roller lifters and a roller cam that’s about another four grand.

Did your new engine come with notations that it was already run in  in the test cell?  My point being that the initial "run in" from the bench assembly needs to be done with calibrated gauges not that the engine has to be "installed" with calibrated gauges. The FAA has on a couple of instances with me (in airport discussions) made it plain that the sign off "overhauled" includes the initial run in period with calibrated gauges as the Lycoming manual states. Whether its in the airplane or in a test cell doesn't matter. Also (and I won't have time to look it up right now) I think you will find reference to "overhaul" and what it means in the regs

[cliffy]

10 hours ago, Tcraft938 said:

Three pages of "in the airplane break-in instructions".  

Once the engine is initially run with calibrated gauges to be sure all is well, the rings seat, oil consumption checked and no leaks are apparent, after that it's just getting some time on it checking that stays "in limits" and you have no infant mortality. 

In the Lycoming Overhaul Manual the following is stated for the run in period if it is to be done in the airplane ( they recommend a test cell but will allow the airplane to be used IF)-

 

1) The proper Test Club propeller is used. NOT a flight propeller.

2) A cooling shroud equivalent to a test cell cooling shroud shall be used.

3) The airframe gauges may NOT be used. ALL necessary calibrated gauges shall be installed independent of the airframe

 

The manual run in time accounts for the first 2hr and 15 mins of the engine time if done by the book. The last hour of the run is at normal rated RPM (max allowable). This is for oil consumption checking. It must fall under about 3/4 of a qt per hour. 

Now in reality many do it in the airplane with the airplane propeller. But as noted, if push comes to shove, the Feds can (and have) hammered A&Ps for not following the run in in the book. At the very least one should follow the run in procedure as to hours and RPMS on the test. One could make a case of using the airplane gauges if they were calibrated recently I think. And it still comes down to- if you didn't use calibrated gauges you can't technically call it an "overhaul" because you didn't follow the book by Lycoming. Kind of makes a test cell look real good don't it? 

Now if one is the kind of person that picks and chooses what rules they will follow then have at it and do it your way. Chances are you'll never get caught (until there is an investigation, then all bets are off). Now, remember who is legally responsible for the maintenance on the airplane- YOU the owner!

There was a notable case a couple decades ago where the mech told the owner to just go up and fly it like you stole it and there was an accident. The FAA came back and violated the A&P by saying "What makes you think you know more about how to break in an engine than the manufacturer"?

Thoughts to ponder  Shields up

Edited August 22, 2019 by cliffy

[jetdriven]

49 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Did your new engine come with notations that it was already run in  in the test cell?  My point being that the initial "run in" from the bench assembly needs to be done with calibrated gauges not that the engine has to be "installed" with calibrated gauges. The FAA has on a couple of instances with me (in airport discussions) made it plain that the sign off "overhauled" includes the initial run in period with calibrated gauges as the Lycoming manual states. Whether its in the airplane or in a test cell doesn't matter. Also (and I won't have time to look it up right now) I think you will find reference to "overhaul" and what it means in the regs

Yes it was ran in a test cell at Lycoming. That same SB240a says that the engine must be installed with new hoses. However those are an airframe component. Again, I’m not sure how a fed can use an SB to say an engine wasn’t considered overhauled because they re-used the hoses that may only be a year old.  

[jetdriven]

13 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Once the engine is initially run with calibrated gauges to be sure all is well, the rings seat, oil consumption checked and no leaks are apparent, after that it's just getting some time on it checking that stays "in limits" and you have no infant mortality. 

In the Lycoming Overhaul Manual the following is stated for the run in period if it is to be done in the airplane ( they recommend a test cell but will allow the airplane to be used IF)-

 

1) The proper Test Club propeller is used. NOT a flight propeller.

2) A cooling shroud equivalent to a test cell cooling shroud shall be used.

3) The airframe gauges may NOT be used. ALL necessary calibrated gauges shall be installed independent of the airframe

 

The manual run in time accounts for the first 2hr and 15 mins of the engine time if done by the book. The last hour of the run is at normal rated RPM (max allowable). This is for oil consumption checking. It must fall under about 3/4 of a qt per hour. 

Now in reality many do it in the airplane with the airplane propeller. But as noted, if push comes to shove, the Feds can (and have) hammered A&Ps for not following the run in in the book. At the very least one should follow the run in procedure as to hours and RPMS on the test. One could make a case of using the airplane gauges if they were calibrated recently I think. And it still comes down to- if you didn't use calibrated gauges you can't technically call it an "overhaul" because you didn't follow the book by Lycoming. Kind of makes a test cell look real good don't it? 

Now if one is the kind of person that picks and chooses what rules they will follow then have at it and do it your way. Chances are you'll never get caught (until there is an investigation, then all bets are off). Now, remember who is legally responsible for the maintenance on the airplane- YOU the owner!

There was a notable case a couple decades ago where the mech told the owner to just go up and fly it like you stole it and there was an accident. The FAA came back and violated the A&P by saying "What makes you think you know more about how to break in an engine than the manufacturer"?

Thoughts to ponder  Shields up

Lycoming SI 1427c specifically allows the full airframe baffling and a flight propeller. 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by jetdriven

[cliffy]

Seems they are at odds but I'll go with your post ok. 

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Yes it was ran in a test cell at Lycoming. That same SB240a says that the engine must be installed with new hoses. However those are an airframe component. Again, I’m not sure how a fed can use an SB to say an engine wasn’t considered overhauled because they re-used the hoses that may only be a year old.  

Not saying that it can't be considered an overhaul as it was run in in a test cell with calibrated gauges. Overhaul done.

In what and how its installed in is another matter. Hoses have nothing to do with the overhaul. 

[jetdriven]

9 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Seems they are at odds but I'll go with your post ok. 

Not saying that it can't be considered an overhaul as it was run in in a test cell with calibrated gauges. Overhaul done.

In what and how its installed in is another matter. Hoses have nothing to do with the overhaul. 

Lycoming SB 240W mandates that all engine hoses be changed at overhaul.  Is that binding? Is SI 1427C binding? 
 

[Guest]

I believe that the reference to new hoses in SB240 refers to only those hoses supplied as part of the engine, not the airframe interface hoses.

Clarence

[zaitcev]

Sabretech post updates on the project, the latest was yesterday:

 

 

I was thinking about it because my own cowl has some small problems: stripped threads, damage from baffling rub. Rescuing an old STC seems like an impossible endeavor for someone who's not deep in the system already.

[Shadrach]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:30 PM, takair said:

Depends on a bunch of things.  How many hours since last overhaul, who did it, etc?  When was it done, how often is it flown?  Tell us more about how this was discovered?  You had a previous crack?  Were cylinders improperly torqued, prop strike?  U fortunately the tear down sounds inevitable if the crack exceeds limits.

Can you show me Lycoming’s guidance on crack limits? As far as I know any crack is considered unairworthy. Continental does allow for operations with small cracks in certain areas.

[Shadrach]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:17 PM, zaitcev said:

Yes, it's yet another case crack on IO-360. This one is on the left side out in front, in the area that narrows towards the propeller.

So, the question is, what are my options? My mechanic says he knows someone who owns a salvage yard and may be able to find a suitable half case. But what happens after that? I have to find someone who can disassemble the whole engine and then assemble it back, correct?

Also, what are chances that the something else crops up once we get the engine apart?

I can tell you what I did. The case on my IO36A1A cracked at 2800TT and 900SMOH. I removed the engine and took it to my local engine shop (Aero Engines of Winchester) sans accessories. They split the case and sent out to Crankcase Services in Tulsa, OK. The case halves were overhauled (cleaned, repaired, reinforced and align bored).  I had the cylinders IRANd by a cylinder overhauler at the same time. He lapped all valves, replaced a few exhaust valves and gave the cylinders a light hone. My engine shop reassembled the engine with reground lifters. My cost before rehanging the engine (done under supervision) was about $4000 (of which $800 was the case overhaul). This was in 2010 so I’m sure prices have changed.  In the 600hrs since the repair I’ve not had a problem with any of the work performed and the engine has been oil tight.   I was active on the AOPA forum (red board) at the time. The predominant online wisdom at the time was that it was time to buy a new engine. I am so glad I tuned “those experts” out and spoke to an actual engine shop about my goals. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Shadrach

[Jim Peace]

This happened to a friend of mine on a bonanza in the same area you describe.  It was a crack and a small hole.  Somehow he was able to have mechanics repair it (all legal) with something like JB weld.  Held for years and years and then sold the airplane....

[takair]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Can you show me Lycoming’s guidance on crack limits? As far as I know any crack is considered unairworthy. Continental does allow for operations with small cracks in certain areas.

Yes, you are correct.  I was too generic in my wording.  Here is what they say:

B. Examine the external surface of both crankcase halves. If any of the following are found, replace the crankcase:
• Any raised metal on surfaces
• Any scratch, ding, dent, or, pit that exceeds 0.050 in. (1.27 mm) depth
• Any crack

[65eTurbo]

11 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I can tell you what I did. The case on my IO36A1A cracked at 2800TT and 900SMOH. I removed the engine and took it to my local engine shop (Aero Engines of Winchester) sans accessories. They split the case and sent out to Crankcase Services in Tulsa, OK. The case halves were overhauled (cleaned, repaired, reinforced and alignbored).  I had the cylinders IRANd by a cylinder overhauler at the same time. He lapped all valves, replaced a few exhaust valves and gave the cylinders a light hone. My engine shop reassembled the engine with reground lifters. My cost before rehanging the engine (done under supervision) was about $4000 (of which $800 was the case overhaul). This was in 2010 so I’m sure prices have changed.  In the 600hrs since the repair I’ve not had a problem with any of the work performed and the engine has been oil tight.   I was active on the AOPA forum (red board) at the time. The predominant online wisdom at the time was that it was time to buy a new engine. I am so glad I tuned “those experts” out and spoke to an actual engine shop about my goals. 

  You're my hero. I just resurrected a single time rebuilt engine that has been sitting for almost 10 years in a dry heated hangar.  Everything's operating fine but my concern is that the Cam has pitting which will erode the lobes overtime. If I discover that there's problems with the lobes I plan on doing  what you did but only replacing the Cam and lifters. Can you share the name of the shop that did the cylinder work?

Edited August 23, 2019 by 65eTurbo

[KSMooniac]

If you end up taking the cylinders off for overhaul or simple inspection/repair, there are many good shops that you can ship them to. I used Barrett in Tulsa for a lot of my overhaul work. They flow-matched my cylinders (and balanced my rotating parts) and I have a very, very smooth engine.

I'd check that oil filter and oil screen regularly looking for chunks before they circulate through the engine and create more damage to the crank, journals, etc.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

On 8/23/2019 at 6:00 PM, 65eTurbo said:

  You're my hero. I just resurrected a single time rebuilt engine that has been sitting for almost 10 years in a dry heated hangar.  Everything's operating fine but my concern is that the Cam has pitting which will erode the lobes overtime. If I discover that there's problems with the lobes I plan on doing  what you did but only replacing the Cam and lifters. Can you share the name of the shop that did the cylinder work?

I used Skyline Cylinders because they are close and part of the local network of aviation businesses. I always try to defer to the closest service provider when possible. FYI the lifters usually fail and take out the cam when they quit rotating. If I was in your situation, I’d be very tempted to pull the cylinders just to confirm the condition of the internals. Lifters are cheap.  If it eats a cam your out the R&R plus the cost of a cam and lifters. Pulling cylinder to verify condition of internals is not a huge expense to know what you have. The trouble is you might find something that should be addressed. 

 

Skyline Cylinders

15296 Skyline Dr, State Line, PA 17263 

(717) 597-1020

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Shadrach

[Steve W]

21 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

The trouble is you might find something that should be addressed. 

And that's the story of how my prop strike turned into an overhaul. Previous cam failure had apparently flooded the engine with metal.