Jump to content

Upgrade speedbrakes w/ new panel??


khedrei

Recommended Posts

I was waiting for the Garmin auto pilot for my K for the last 18 months and in that time the project snowballed into an entire panel way beyond anything I had ever imagined I would do.  But hey, its only money right.  Plus I'm super excited.  So I've pulled the trigger on an ENTIRE Garmin panel.  10" TXi w/EIS, 750, 650, GFC-500, G5, remote audio, remote diversity transponder, and some other little gadgets like CO detector, Stratus USB, and while I am at it, a glareshield and yoke recovering. 

My installer really wants to get rid of my vacuum system and suggested I upgrade my speedbrakes to electric so that we can do that.  Makes sense.  And given that my vacuum pump just bit the dust I figured it would have made my decision easier.  The new speedbrakes are 5k USD.  Precise flight did offer me a discount off that number.  But still 7k CAD plus install.  A new vacuum pump is $231 CAD and install is simple.  In fact I had my standby pump moved there in the meantime until I figured out what I would be doing.  A friend said don't even bother, just keep replacing the vacuum pump every 500 hours or so, way cheaper than new speedbrakes.  Plus it will only be used to power them.  The only issue was that I would have to make sure the vacuum system has relief if not hooked to any instruments and only hooked to the speedbrakes.  Does it have a hole in the other end to suck through?  Not sure how the system works in that regard.  It would take a lifetime to make up the cost at $231 each.  But since the work is getting done, and everything is going to be open, Murphys law says that if I don't replace them they will fail in a years time and I will have to do it anyway.  Log book says they were installed in 1990 so almost 30 years now.

With the amount of money being spent on this upgrade, it seems like just a little bit more, so why not right??!!  But it's still a lot, and I have to draw the line somewhere.  I drew one line already when I was thinking of doing a 7" TXi on the co-pilot side and opted for an Ipad mount instead.

Thoughts?  Is there any weight savings in the new speedbrakes vs the entire vacuum system?  I'd imagine it's negligible. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best Go electric speed brakes... never look back...

Also consider the second alternator mounted to the pad where the vac pump used to be...

the second vac pump, motor, and frame weighs a few pounds(?)

Don’t add up the costs...

don’t calculate an ROI...

Do calculate the weight and balance changes... before spending money... in case you need to add ballast...

:)

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congrats on the upgrade trigger, you’re going to love the stuff you’re putting in! I remember my project started wanting to put a jpi monitor in landscape configuration and it snowballed into a TXi and all glass cockpit. :) All good!  I saved around 11 pounds or so if I recall from removing my standby and primary vacuum pumps. So i can’t imagine the electric speed brakes would weigh 11 pounds more than your current ones, so you’ll get a weight savings. Once you get your electric ones, you should never need to get new ones, as they can overhaul them if they ever need them pretty inexpensively. ( one of mine needed an overhaul at around 1,400 hours, I decided to get them both overhauled for I think was around or less than $500 each and they’re both like new now) 

 

congrats again! And perhaps you can join my quest to get Garmin to add a display of the CO number from your remote CO detector on the TXi which currently it does not.

 

oh and if you really decide to buy another vacuum pump to replace the one that’s failing (I wouldn’t but) I have an entire vacuum system you can have for  $10 + shipping if it will work in your airplane. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did consider a second alternator in place of the pump. Aparently there is no STC that will allow for that installation in my K model. 

I'm definitely excited. Thanks for the feedback. Do the electric speedbrakes work any better than the vac powered ones? I'd imagine they are the same. I guess the piece of mind is there knowing everything is new. 

I am definitely hoping for more Garmin integration with the CO detector as well as a % HP for EIS. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to go electric speed brakes as well, but that's a ways down the list.  When I went all glass, I removed the standby pump though. We left the engine mounted pump and thats now only connected to the speed brakes.

If I was doing it again, I might leave the standby pump in the tail, and take the engine pump off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My speed brakes are electric and were on the plane when I bought it.  I thought, well speed brakes, that’s neat.  Since that time I’ve had a few times when they were a fabulous addition to the bag of tricks.  Now I hate to think of flying a Mooney without them.

if you have to change them to electric to keep them, so be it.

My $0.02,

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've flown a number of K's with the pneumatic speed brakes.  What a PIA!  They were  slow, sometimes didn't retract fully when cold or extend fully.  Electric speed brakes are a breath of fresh air.  Speedbrakes are more than the sum of their parts.  When used properly they bring added depth to your airplane.  I can't imagine keeping a vacuum system with the weight that that entails for the purpose of speed brake usage only.  With what you're spending to  upgrade your airplane, a new set of electric speed brakes will make you smile every time you use them in the same way as using the new avionics.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vac motors vs. electric motors...

Ever see a 70s Corvette with one eye open and the other shut?  Or watch them slowly struggle to operate?

Ever see a Mooney step stuck in the down position?

Ever notice your precision vac gyro instruments are conveniently sharing the same vac pump as the thing that carries 600Lbs of UL entering the cabin..

If you haven’t noticed these... electric motors are probably better for you...

Some electric motor systems are hidden by their name... linear actuator.

I also sent by speed brakes in for a clutch OH... it was disappointing because I didn’t know how to pull them out... I was expecting it to be a touch easier... some hidden hardware that it helps to read the MM.... my mechanic took care of the whole thing at an annual...

Speed brakes are one of those devices that is nice to have, but very expensive to add...  

the heavier the plane is... the more appreciated the speed brakes become...

Find somebody selling off the old ones when they upgrade to electric... everyone wins... :)

Best regards,

-a-

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I would have never forked over the money to add the speed brakes, but they sure are great to have.

I was going into Conroe a few months ago at 6,500.  Houston approach didn’t turn me loose to descend until I was almost on top of the place.  I put up the brakes and dropped out of the sky like a rock without getting too close to Vne. To aggravate the situation they gave me right traffic and on downwind told me to follow the Citation that was on a long final.  The brakes gave me another option while I was seeing how I was going to fit in behind the jet.  I felt safe and in control during the whole process.

I agree with the comments about vacuum controlled devices.  Brings to mind the windshield wipers on my ‘55 Chevy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I will be the contrarian here.

When I did the Aspen in my panel, I changed out enough other parts to eliminate the need for the vacuum system other than my speed brakes. I pulled the standby vacuum pump in the rear of the plane, saving 12 lbs. but kept the one on the engine solely for the speed brakes. I looked at switching to electric, but the total cost was closer to $8k and essentially gave me zero additional functionality over what I had so I opted to keep the vacuum pump just for them, and if they ever die, I will swap out to the electric ones.

I have never had any problems with mine deploying or retracting, and I make sure they are looked at every annual. The only thing I wish I could get is the mount for under the left horn of the pilot's yoke so I would not have to reach up on the panel every time I wanted to deploy them.

According to my POH, mine were added at the factory and delivered with the plane, so they currently have over 5,000 hours on them.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm with the @Oldguy. I did the Aspen thing as well, removed the standby vacuum pump in the tail, pulled all the vacuum piping from the panel. But left the vacuum pump on the engine only to run the speed brakes. 

Mine are also functioning just fine. They are very snappy to deploy and retract. Someday maybe, but while $6K to $8K isn't a huge number compared to what I spend on this hobby, it is something. And the ONLY change would be the removal of the weight of the engine mounted pump. The ROI just isn't there yet. Someday, but not today.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't even understand why your avionics installer even suggested going to electric at this time would be helpful. There is absolutely no argument to be made that it would involve any less work to install electric now versus later. Properly maintained pneumatic speed brakes work very reliably. Although mine hardly ever get used beyond the run-up to check that they deploy properly, all speed brakes do require maintenance from time to time and frankly the pneumatic are the least maintenance intensive of the bunch due to their simplicity. Today there only weak spot is the rubber vacuum canister under the rear seat. When this no longer holds vacuum, they aren't currently replaceable. Brittian was making a replacement, but they are out of business again. Otherwise the cables and outer conduit, as well as springs are available from Precise. Its primarily the outer conduit that houses the cable that becomes brittle and cracks resulting in sticking speed brakes. These have to be periodically changed out. Other than that, the only PIA is changing out a bearing in the speed brake itself since the brakes are riveted together around the bearing but still repairable.

But besides the expense of going electric, there is another significant downside. When I inquired with Precise some years ago, they told me the new cartridges don't install in the wings the same way as the old ones and that a significant amount of sheet metal work would need to be done to the wing, top and bottom. Being very concerned about aesthetics I'll push this job off as long as possible. Maybe someone that has done the conversion can speak to the sheet metal work.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My old E has one more advantage vs. newer Mooneys... the Precise Flight speed brakes are neither vacuum nor electric, they’re mechanical. Deployment/retraction is almost instantaneous using a lever between the seats, beside the gear JBar. Installed in 1997 and other than annual lube no fuss.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/18/2019 at 1:03 PM, khedrei said:

I did consider a second alternator in place of the pump. Apparently there is no STC that will allow for that installation in my K model. 

I'm definitely excited. Thanks for the feedback. Do the electric speedbrakes work any better than the vac powered ones? I'd imagine they are the same. I guess the piece of mind is there knowing everything is new. 

I am definitely hoping for more Garmin integration with the CO detector as well as a % HP for EIS. 

Without an STC option for a second alternator, you might look at this option. 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/turboalt1428.php

I have this in my plane as I am turbonormalized and need to keep a scavenger pump on the accessory case.  

John Breda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting. I didnt know they made these for small aircraft. How much was the installation worth? Clearly there is some sheet metal or fiberglass work to create the opening and flap. 

I'm not sure what being turbo normalized has to do with it though. 

On a note back to a previous post, I was told by precise flight that there is no sheet metal work involved. If there is then my decision would be a breeze. Not interested. But since they said it's a simple bolt on I was considering it. Clearly the opinions here are mixed.  I'm still torn. Lots of money to replace a working system. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As to the speed brakes, dont forget you can probably get a couple hundred bucks to maybe 1 or 2 grand for your speed brakes which makes the difference smaller. As to the alternator, i think im going to try to get a field approval for the b&c alternator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/18/2019 at 12:11 PM, khedrei said:

10" TXi w/EIS, 750, 650, GFC-500, G5, remote audio, remote diversity transponder, and some other little gadgets like CO detector, Stratus USB, and while I am at it, a glareshield and yoke recovering. 

The dream panel...congrats!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, khedrei said:

 

I'm not sure what being turbo normalized has to do with it though. 

 

KH,

Doc John mentioned having a scavenger pump mounted on the extra drive location to support his turbo....

Some complexity that may not apply to your ship... but, drove his decision to go this route...

Best regards,

-a-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback. I'll consider the option of selling the old ones. 

4 hours ago, Davidv said:

The dream panel...congrats!

Thanks I'm super excited. I opted for an ipad instead of a second TXi. Saved about 15k. 

 

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

KH,

Doc John mentioned having a scavenger pump mounted on the extra drive location to support his turbo....

Some complexity that may not apply to your ship... but, drove his decision to go this route...

Best regards,

-a-

I must be missing something here. I have a turbo. Should I have a scavenger pump?

 

7 hours ago, Niko182 said:

As to the speed brakes, dont forget you can probably get a couple hundred bucks to maybe 1 or 2 grand for your speed brakes which makes the difference smaller. As to the alternator, i think im going to try to get a field approval for the b&c alternator.

Unfortunately a field approval isnt an option here in Canada so I'm out of luck. 

Edited by khedrei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/19/2019 at 11:35 AM, Bob_Belville said:

My old E has one more advantage vs. newer Mooneys... the Precise Flight speed brakes are neither vacuum nor electric, they’re mechanical. Deployment/retraction is almost instantaneous using a lever between the seats, beside the gear JBar. Installed in 1997 and other than annual lube no fuss.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My 231 has manual speed brakes and I would never consider spending money to upgrade them.   They get used on rare occasions as a convenience, but there are plenty of other tools in the box.   As to the original post, I'd keep the vacuum driven speed brakes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

The vacuum mechanical sped brakes are dead reliable. The electric sped brakes often need a cartridge  rebuilt every couple years for 1000$. Also, the electric speed brake kit is over 7000$ as well. So your gonna spend 8500-10k on this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.