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Dale Jr crash 0A9


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On 8/16/2019 at 12:59 PM, Austintatious said:

There are a lot of factors, but I would hope 4500 feet would be plenty for a citation... I regularly land a G650 on 4700 feet!

 

I am glad they all made it out ok....   Overruns on landings are quite common, especially in entry level jets.  Here's the deal... Corporate pilots make most of their landings on long runways... The strive to grease the aircraft onto the runway to impress the boss and then use light braking to make things smooth.  Furthermore they slack on speed control or add a few more knots above Vref for a perceived added safety margin.  Then inevitably, they end up going into a short field.  Their muscle memory is working against them.   The numbers say they can stop, but the numbers are based on MAX EFFORT... They come in, flair and float, touch down and begin braking lightly... pretty soon they see the end of the runway coming up fast and even with full brake application they cannot stop it.

Throw in another factor like an unexpected tailwind or a wet / slippery runway and it is a prime situation for an accident.

When I was instructing and checking at a 142 school I dealt with this constantly.  The FAA became so sick of overrun accidents that they mandated an acceptable touchdown area for checking, since it had not been specified previously.  It was a real issue trying to get pilots to actually touch down inside the box. PRO pilots flying for 91K and 135 ops.

 

When I went back to flying I have abandoned the idea of greasing the aircraft onto the runway and using light brakes, even on the long ones since we go into a lot of short fields and I want to stay sharp in both getting it on the ground and slowing rapidly.  It also conditions the passengers to that sort of landing.

They had 4100’ with the displaced threshold. The DA was probably ~5000 on mid August Tennessee day. Does not seem like a lot of margin for the very reasons you’ve mentioned and more.

I'm not surprised at your experience instructing. If pros don’t train for short fields then those pros are not trained for short fields. It’s not like they can grab the keys, find a little airport and go practice. I can do that in my little airplane because practice is inexpensive. Although given the outcome and expense of this over run, practice likely looks comparatively inexpensive in this case as well.

Edited by Shadrach
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7 hours ago, bonal said:

Don't they train for different situations in sims like short runways and a variety of landing conditions. My understanding is these advanced simulators are very much like the real deal.

You certainly can.  It is just not done a whole lot with recurrent training.  Reason being that the few sim sessions you do are pretty packed with requirements and the airfields at which they can all be accomplished are typically long runways.

They do now require that during a check you must demonstrate at least 1 max performance landing, but IIRC you are only required to get stopped or slowed to a taxi speed in 120% of the book numbers....   That is a failing IMHO, it should be  equal to or better than book numbers.

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18 hours ago, Austintatious said:

There are a lot of factors, but I would hope 4500 feet would be plenty for a citation... I regularly land a G650 on 4700 feet!

 

I am glad they all made it out ok....   Overruns on landings are quite common, especially in entry level jets.  Here's the deal... Corporate pilots make most of their landings on long runways... The strive to grease the aircraft onto the runway to impress the boss and then use light braking to make things smooth.  Furthermore they slack on speed control or add a few more knots above Vref for a perceived added safety margin.  Then inevitably, they end up going into a short field.  Their muscle memory is working against them.   The numbers say they can stop, but the numbers are based on MAX EFFORT... They come in, flair and float, touch down and begin braking lightly... pretty soon they see the end of the runway coming up fast and even with full brake application they cannot stop it.

Throw in another factor like an unexpected tailwind or a wet / slippery runway and it is a prime situation for an accident.

When I was instructing and checking at a 142 school I dealt with this constantly.  The FAA became so sick of overrun accidents that they mandated an acceptable touchdown area for checking, since it had not been specified previously.  It was a real issue trying to get pilots to actually touch down inside the box. PRO pilots flying for 91K and 135 ops.

 

When I went back to flying I have abandoned the idea of greasing the aircraft onto the runway and using light brakes, even on the long ones since we go into a lot of short fields and I want to stay sharp in both getting it on the ground and slowing rapidly.  It also conditions the passengers to that sort of landing.

One of the things I used to emphasize when teaching in jets is touching down on the mark, and getting the speed broke down to 80 knots quickly. It is essential in all operations and especially short or wet. That said, I can tell you that you can do everything right and still come to grief. I have landed on wet runways and had all main wheels go to "release" on the anti-skid because the hydroplaning was so severe it detected "locked wheel" condition. No matter how hard you press on the brake pedals, no matter what setting you have on the auto brakes, the airplane is not going to stop under those circumstances. Your only hope is the thrust reversers get the speed broken down fast enough your tires penetrate the viscous surface since hydroplaning speed is the square root of the tire pressure times 9. I was checking out a new guy once into Chicago Midway. He did a prefect landing, actually touched down 25' before the mark nice and firm which is what you want to break the viscous layer. We had the exact landing distance calculated for the runway by our dispatch, at our exact current weight and it was based on wet numbers which provided another 15% margin, so all in all we had a 30% margin. On touch down with "Maximum" auto brakes set, every wheel went into "release". I had the "kid" go full reverse thrust while I raised up and wedged myself between the seat back and the brakes with grunting and cursing. We stopped with about 50' to spare. 

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17 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

One of the things I used to emphasize when teaching in jets is touching down on the mark, and getting the speed broke down to 80 knots quickly. It is essential in all operations and especially short or wet. That said, I can tell you that you can do everything right and still come to grief. I have landed on wet runways and had all main wheels go to "release" on the anti-skid because the hydroplaning was so severe it detected "locked wheel" condition. No matter how hard you press on the brake pedals, no matter what setting you have on the auto brakes, the airplane is not going to stop under those circumstances. Your only hope is the thrust reversers get the speed broken down fast enough your tires penetrate the viscous surface since hydroplaning speed is the square root of the tire pressure times 9. I was checking out a new guy once into Chicago Midway. He did a prefect landing, actually touched down 25' before the mark nice and firm which is what you want to break the viscous layer. We had the exact landing distance calculated for the runway by our dispatch, at our exact current weight and it was based on wet numbers which provided another 15% margin, so all in all we had a 30% margin. On touch down with "Maximum" auto brakes set, every wheel went into "release". I had the "kid" go full reverse thrust while I raised up and wedged myself between the seat back and the brakes with grunting and cursing. We stopped with about 50' to spare. 

No doubt there are scenarios where the decision to land was the mistake!  I have been there... Holy crap In Russell Kansas...  I called about 5 min out because the 1mw was reporting +1c and light rain.  I keyed up on CTAF and said "Citation 500LC 10 miles South, inbound fll stop 35... Hey JESSIE you there?"   Jessie was the airport manager and he knew us well because we went there all the time.  He came back at me on the radio said "yeap".  I asked him how the field was since it was cold and wet... he told me he JUST came in and the surface was damp but otherwise OK.  On final I could see cars on the freeway going full speed.  On short final the runway definitely looked damp.   The saving grace that day was the fact that the wind was blowing 30 knots straight down the runway... When I touched down and pushed the brakes, they did absolutely nothing.  The TR's were deployed at idle and as the speed bled off the aircraft cocked about 30 degrees to one side still going straight despite rudder input (perhaps TR's were causing a bit of side thrust at the tail somehow).   When I turned off the runway onto the taxiway, the aircraft was being blown sideways across the pavement.  Got her to a parking spot.  The car for the passengers pulled up in front of us and simultaneously two people got out of the car and promptly slipped and fell on the black ice that had formed on the pavement.   Even STANDING on it you could not tell it was ice... it just looked like wet concrete.

After the pax were gone Jessie got onboard was was swearing up and down that when I called it was only wet.  I believe him... So in the 5 min between him coming inside and me landing all the dampness turned into the most invisible most slippery ice I have ever seen!

 

One thing I always stressed was to never ever  stack the deck against yourself.  Runway short?  Ok, no problem....Runway Short and wet?  better think things through real hard.  Tailwind on landing?  If its is within limits and you have numbers then fine... Tailwind + partial flap?  not a chance.   Basically only accept 1 a- typical factor for takeoff or landing maximum, even if the book says you can do it with multiple factors working against you.

Edited by Austintatious
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so in a prior life, I was a bus driver for the Town of Vail during the winter.  One of the stops you had to pull off the feeder into the Library parking lot.  It had just started to snow, I was coming in a bit hot.  I ended up powersliding off the feeder.  corrected then started swapping ends the other way then back and finally straightened up just as I got the door to the line of people.    As they were getting on "y'all are still getting on after watching that?"     One guy  "meh looked like you had it under control"        Then there was the time when I almost smushed 2 people into the Dobson ice arena wall because the bus was sliding.

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Yep damp will freeze over very fast vs wet because of the latent heat of water. And you pointed to two problems we in GA face and that is poor condition reports and the lack of grooved runways. I am sure Jes gave you the correct report, but not the current report and I never understood why with all the automated weather equipment, ASOS and such we have that it did not include a runway temp reading. If that damp runway had been grooved it also would have been much better for you, slower to freeze over, better cornering forces on the tires, better friction coefficient.

 

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

How did the discussion morph into icy runways? There ain't no ice on the ground anywhere in Tennessee in August, unless someone knocked over a cooler . . . .

Well seems like a closer thread drift than the classic lean of peak - on dales cessna citation.

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2 hours ago, Hank said:

How did the discussion morph into icy runways? There ain't no ice on the ground anywhere in Tennessee in August, unless someone knocked over a cooler . . . .

The crash was not a Mooney either. However the question was about overshoots, running off the runway. Can happen a lot of ways. The hydroplaning speed of a Mooney is about 63 knots which means you have a distinct chance you are hydroplaning on touchdown even in a Mooney. 

 

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9 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The crash was not a Mooney either. However the question was about overshoots, running off the runway. Can happen a lot of ways. The hydroplaning speed of a Mooney is about 63 knots which means you have a distinct chance you are hydroplaning on touchdown even in a Mooney. 

 

Interesting observation. What’s more interesting is that any Mooney model from the oldest to the newest would still be flying at 63kts if configured for landing. If a Mooney pilot doesn’t fly onto the runway at ?xVso then hydroplaning will never be a problem.

Edited by Shadrach
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4 hours ago, Hank said:

There ain't no ice on the ground anywhere in Tennessee in August, unless someone knocked over a cooler . . . .

Knocking over a cooler wouldnt even last long down here, I've been using Celsius just to keep the numbers low (it's a mind game)

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4 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Knocking over a cooler wouldnt even last long down here, I've been using Celsius just to keep the numbers low (it's a mind game)

Today the temperature was just was 39°, but last Wednesday the heat index was 46°!

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Several years back I was in Lebanon Tenn, for a few days in January.  Just before I started the approach into muni airport the controller told me the airport was closed and sent me to Gallatin.  I landed there on a slick runway and called Lebanon to check conditions.  Turns out a little snow and only the sun to clear the runway ( no equipment).  I flew down VFR for a look see  and landed.  Very small amount of snow and a slightly slick runway.  Airport manager had panicked for no reason.  A couple of days later we had a real snowstorm maybe 3" or so.  Absolute panic ensued schools closed, businesses closed, newscasters warned all to stay home.  The few plows that could be found were pressed into service but not at the airport.  I had to wait a day for the sun to melt the runway.  Tenn. does get not get snow often.  If they did they would be better prepared.

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10 hours ago, FoxMike said:

Several years back I was in Lebanon Tenn, for a few days in January.  Just before I started the approach into muni airport the controller told me the airport was closed and sent me to Gallatin.  I landed there on a slick runway and called Lebanon to check conditions.  Turns out a little snow and only the sun to clear the runway ( no equipment).  I flew down VFR for a look see  and landed.  Very small amount of snow and a slightly slick runway.  Airport manager had panicked for no reason.  A couple of days later we had a real snowstorm maybe 3" or so.  Absolute panic ensued schools closed, businesses closed, newscasters warned all to stay home.  The few plows that could be found were pressed into service but not at the airport.  I had to wait a day for the sun to melt the runway.  Tenn. does get not get snow often.  If they did they would be better prepared.

Yep, that's winter in the South. We get an inch or so every few years here in LA. Just enjoy the unplanned day off!

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So when I first read the headlines, I assumed the plane had crashed out of the sky. It was only after the sixth or seventh paragraph did the initial article mention the plane exceeding runway limits.

So how will the NTSB record this? Real question. Please enlighten the ignorant :)

David

 

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18 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Interesting observation. What’s more interesting is that any Mooney model from the oldest to the newest would still be flying at 63kts if configured for landing. If a Mooney pilot doesn’t fly onto the runway at ?xVso then hydroplaning will never be a problem.

Think about this. You are at KTRK zero wind or maybe pick a little tail wind say two knots, what is your ground speed? 66 if you touch down precisely, precisely at Vso. If not it is higher. So you're hydroplaning for a while.

 

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5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Think about this. You are at KTRK zero wind or maybe pick a little tail wind say two knots, what is your ground speed? 66 if you touch down precisely, precisely at Vso. If not it is higher. So you're hydroplaning for a while.

 

Vso in my aircraft is actually 54kts at gross. I am border line religious about speed control but not every one is. Any hydroplaning I’ve experiences has been minimal and has occurred in the first few seconds of landing or the last few seconds prior to take off. This likely stems from the fact that I rarely operate out of poorly maintained (read poorly graded) strips in foul weather. I agree that hydroplaning occurs in little aircraft but much of that risk can be mitigated with airmanship.

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7 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Think about this. You are at KTRK zero wind or maybe pick a little tail wind say two knots, what is your ground speed? 66 if you touch down precisely, precisely at Vso. If not it is higher. So you're hydroplaning for a while.

 

My stall speed, gear down, Takeoff flaps is 64 mph, 56 knots at gross, so usually even less. I've landed with a noticeable tailwind twice (once following FSS instructions, once Tower instructions) and have since figured out how to tell before it starts getting weird in the flare. Tailwinds really mess up my landings! And it's not because my groundspeed is a little high . . . .66 knots is my target speed over the numbers if I'm within 300 lb of gross, but of course flare and touchdown are rather slower.

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