BK KI300 &KA310 Question

[mike_elliott]

John, I hope for the best and your beautiful area isnt affected too horribly by the fires. 

[MIm20c]

On 1/11/2020 at 4:25 PM, Hillard said:

Btw the autopilot put the airplane into a steep bank before the ki300 failed presumably because it puts out garbage before it fails.

Thank you for the review. Your last statement is troubling to me as I’m trying to gather up some faith in the ki300. 

[carusoam]

Great pirep @Hillard!

Hope things get back to normal soon in your part of the Mooney world!

We have a BK guy around here that I can let know about your KI300 situation...

@PearceBK check out this pirep above...   ^^^^

Best regards,

-a-

[BarkerBK]

@Hillard

I hope your managing ok with all the fires. 

I appreciate the solid honest feedback. I'll send you a PM with some contact info for tech support. It sounds like initially you've got it handled, but I would like you to share your experience with tech support just to make sure there are no systemic problems. 

Cheers, 

Steve

[Hillard]

I’d not be overly concerned as the reaction when the KI300 went offline was similar to what I’d experienced in the past when the KI258 needed an overhaul.  But it is disappointing as I’d hoped that the digital KI300 would just disengage the autopilot quickly enough to maintain straight and level.

i’ll be in touch with BK shortly to see whether they can suggest what caused the problem.

[globalpolygraph]

I'd be interested in this as well.  Just had the KI-300/KA-310 installed in my M20J.  One flight in and works great but haven't given it a real test yet.

[Hillard]

I've now done 15 hours flying (and 9 approaches incl ILS, RNAV, overlay NDB, hold) with the KI300 (and KI310) since having it fitted in December .  The main issue with it has been overheating.  I've now replicated the problem by leaving the plane in the sun without a cover - it initialised fine at temperatures to 38degC but did not at 40degC.  It would not leave the "heating mode" and start the "alignment" phase - I ran it for more than 10 minutes before shutting down.  These are high temperatures but not extreme for Australia and the USA.  BendixKing say that they will be send a replacement in the hope that this is just a bad unit but I'll be interested in others experiences with it in high temperatures.  My take on it so far:

1.  It does everything that the KI258 did in driving my KAP150 autopilot but with a bit more precision.

2. The speed and altitude tapes are useful but they are not really a backup since they run off the same pitot static system.  The built in VSI has been surprisingly good as it is effectively an instantaneous reading and does not have the lag of the main instrument.

3. I chose to leave my vacuum system in and just replaced the worn out KI258 with a cheap vacuum A/H in a secondary location on the panel.  If your vac system works then I can't see why you'd want to remove it.  I've never had a vac pump failure perhaps because I replace them at the same time I have my mags overhauled.  They are a relatively cheap part.  This gives me triple redundancy for attitude as I have the backup vac pump on the vac A/H and the battery on the Ki300. 

4. The KI310 is a surprising large (5.8 x 5.25 x 1 inches) box for what it does.  It is very tight behind my panel so, to find a place for it, we had to remove the DME.

I'm now away for five weeks but will do some further testing on my return after the replacement KI300 has been fitted.  By that time, I'll have to do a long trip to test it in 40degC temperatures but will do so.

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Great pirep Hiller!

See if @BarkerBK is around...

I think Barker may be the new bK guy?

Best regards,

-a-

[Hillard]

He is.  And I'm pleased to say that Bendix King have shipped the replacement already.  I'm now away until mid March but will then test the replacement and report.

 

[FoxMike]

I have said this on other threads but will say it one more time.  I am on my 5th Quartto which is the same product as the KI 300.  A couple of the replacements have been for optional software updates but mostly I get replacements due to failures.  The type of failure I have seen is due to upset in turbulence.  I  would suggest when you get the new indicator that you find some signifiant turbulence to fly through.  In Colorado turbulence finds all pilots so acceptance testing is easy.  I have found a minute or so in moderate turbulence will fail the unit.  I have discussed this problem with the owner of Sandia and he takes my unit for 6 weeks or so and when I get it back it works.  I have read of a number of other reports of owners have a turbulence related failures so it seems his unit has two identified failure modes.  In my case the Quartto is a backup instrument.  I have the KI256 as primary and will keep it until BK gets a reliable replacement.  Good luck hope I the folks at Sandia will soon do whatever is necessary to make these units reliable.

[Hillard]

My vac ah sits right beside the ki300 so I’m not relying on it.  I’d not heard about it being prone to upset but will check it in march. In the mountains in summer here, turbulence is not hard to find.  The glitches are disappointing but I didn’t want to overhaul my ki258 and needed something to drive my kap150.  
If all else fails, I’ll fit a garmin 500txi but I’d prefer to avoid them if i can.  We often hear that reliability is the great advantage of these solid state instruments but I haven’t seen any real evidence for that.  I’m on my fourth IFD540 box in five years and I have friends who have had multiple failures on garmin stuff.

then again, maybe I’ll just overhaul the ki258!!!

[carusoam]

There are a couple of G500txi systems around here...

Timing is everything... 

I wouldn’t want to have a freshly OH’d panel, then find out how nice a txi system really is...   

 

Around here... is also a couple of Dynon panels getting planned / installed... 

 

So much data... all in one place...

Unfortunately, no electronics box maker has a perfect record...

Always have a good back-up... for critical instruments...

Best regards,

-a-

[globalpolygraph]

Here's an update on my KI-300 install a week ago (1980 M20J).  Last flight in heavy IMC saw my trim alarm come on 4 times in level flight, which locks up the trim until it stops (5 to 10 seconds).  Didn't do that before with the KI-256.  We're trying to trouble shoot the problem, and not even sure it's connected to the KI-300 install.  Other than this glitch - which may be unrelated - the unit seems rock solid and very precise.  Follows courses and glide slopes so well that I have to check that my backup Nav2 is actually working because it's so perfectly centered.  Here in the northeast we don't that much significant turbulence or high heat days so may never get to test out those issues as mentioned above.  Fortunately my G5 HSI also works as a AI so there is backup (not to mention a portable 796).  Only minor complaint so far is the lag time to spool up (heating, alignment).  Will advise how the other issue turns out.  PS - Got a call from Southeast Aerospace following up on the purchase, saying no one else had yet bought one from them and wanted some feedback.  Seems they aren't flying off the shelves.

Edited February 7, 2020 by globalpolygraph
To add photo

[carusoam]

Great pirep, GPG!

good luck with the next steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/7/2020 at 10:49 AM, globalpolygraph said:

Here's an update on my KI-300 install a week ago (1980 M20J).  Last flight in heavy IMC saw my trim alarm come on 4 times in level flight, which locks up the trim until it stops (5 to 10 seconds).  Didn't do that before with the KI-256.  We're trying to trouble shoot the problem, and not even sure it's connected to the KI-300 install.  Other than this glitch - which may be unrelated - the unit seems rock solid and very precise.  Follows courses and glide slopes so well that I have to check that my backup Nav2 is actually working because it's so perfectly centered.  Here in the northeast we don't that much significant turbulence or high heat days so may never get to test out those issues as mentioned above.  Fortunately my G5 HSI also works as a AI so there is backup (not to mention a portable 796).  Only minor complaint so far is the lag time to spool up (heating, alignment).  Will advise how the other issue turns out.  PS - Got a call from Southeast Aerospace following up on the purchase, saying no one else had yet bought one from them and wanted some feedback.  Seems they aren't flying off the shelves.

20+ years ago I used to fly in IMC without a certified back-up attitude. I won’t anymore. Stats show that in training and practice we can fly partial panel ok, but once we lose it for real in IMC our chances aren’t nearly as good at keeping the shiny side up. Way too many accidents where a current IFR pilot gets disoriented after an AI failure. Listening to ATC recordings of these is gut-wrenching.

In the early 2000’s the FAA came out with an advisory that the turn coordinator could be replaced with an attitude indicator for safety reasons. It was a good decision.  ( https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf )

I wanted  the KI-300 to be introduced and  wanted to replace my KI-256 with it, but King made promises for years and finally handed the project off to Sandia. Once a new certification program began and it was discovered that the attitude was not reliable under different situations. As a result, Sandia was not selling their own version of this product for almost a year. I especially wouldn’t fly with the KI-300 as your only certified attitude indicator. This is a “new” King re-branded version of the Sandia Quattro which has had numerous failures. If you read through the threads on Mooneyspace and Beechtalk you’ll see that even the newest software versions of the Sandia Quattro are not very reliable. It may be that you got one of the few reliable ones but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, especially when there are more choices for certified attitude backups than ever.

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

20+ years ago I used to fly in IMC without a certified back-up attitude. I won’t anymore. Stats show that in training and practice we can fly partial panel ok, but once we lose it for real in IMC our chances aren’t nearly as good at keeping the shiny side up. Way too many accidents where a current IFR pilot gets disoriented after an AI failure. Listening to ATC recordings of these is gut-wrenching.

In the early 2000’s the FAA came out with an advisory that the turn coordinator could be replaced with an attitude indicator for safety reasons. It was a good decision. 

I wanted  the KI-300 to be introduced and  wanted to replace my KI-256 with it, but King made promises for years and finally handed the project off to Sandia. Once a new certification program began and it was discovered that the attitude was not reliable under different situations, Sandia was not selling their own version of this product for almost a year. I especially wouldn’t fly with the KI-300 as your only certified attitude indicator. This is a “new” King re-branded version of the Sandia Quattro which has had numerous failures. If you read through the threads on Mooneyspace and Beechtalk you’ll see that even the newest software versions of the Sandia Quattro are not very reliable. It may be that you got one of the few reliable ones but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, especially when there are more choices for certified attitude backups than ever.

the G5 could be considered a backup

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the G5 could be considered a backup

Then you'd have to choose between your HSI and your attitude indicator. Another G5 or equivalent where the turn coordinator is would be nice. Seeing the disparity between the 2 attitude indicators would alert you much more quickly.

[Austintatious]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:54 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Then you'd have to choose between your HSI and your attitude indicator. Another G5 or equivalent where the turn coordinator is would be nice. Seeing the disparity between the 2 attitude indicators would alert you much more quickly.

With my 256 sitting above a G5... I fly nearly all the time with the G5 in ADI mode...  It has a small HSI indication at the bottom and I can always look at my 530w for a map.  I do this for a few reasons. 

1- I have 2 adi's I can compare at all times. The turn coordinator is the tie breaker

2- I can set altitude clearances which is helpful and I get a bug on the alt tape.

3- the altitudes never really match up, so I can go off of the conservative one or split the diff in cruise.  also, when flying above 180, on the way down I can set the area altimeter on one of them then set the other to match at transition.

 

[globalpolygraph]

The G5 is an excellent backup AI, plus an uncertified Garmin 796 on the yoke that could get me out of a jam.  Frankly, after dealing with the 256 (went through 3 of them) partial panel flying is pretty much a non-event any more.  Just another day at the office.  So far the KI-300 has been rock solid, except for the possible trim issue.

So we're still trying to troubleshoot the trim alarm issue on the KFC-200.  Figured out it goes off after the AP porpoises for 5 to 10 seconds ever so slightly (not noticeable on the altimeter but you can feel it in your seat).  Not sure if the pitch servo can't handle holding such an exact altitude, overshoots and has to compensate, or something else.  Once the trim alarm is set off, the trim locks up (with the alarm sounding) for 10 to 15 seconds until it resets itself.  Right now it's just annoying and hasn't affected the plane's ability to hold altitude or fly an approach, but still something that we need to figure out.  PS - The pitch servo was replaced about 6 months ago, but the alarm issue didn't start until I put in the KI-300.

Anyone else had something like this happen?

 

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, globalpolygraph said:

The G5 is an excellent backup AI, plus an uncertified Garmin 796 on the yoke that could get me out of a jam.  Frankly, after dealing with the 256 (went through 3 of them) partial panel flying is pretty much a non-event any more.  Just another day at the office.  So far the KI-300 has been rock solid, except for the possible trim issue.

So we're still trying to troubleshoot the trim alarm issue on the KFC-200.  Figured out it goes off after the AP porpoises for 5 to 10 seconds ever so slightly (not noticeable on the altimeter but you can feel it in your seat).  Not sure if the pitch servo can't handle holding such an exact altitude, overshoots and has to compensate, or something else.  Once the trim alarm is set off, the trim locks up (with the alarm sounding) for 10 to 15 seconds until it resets itself.  Right now it's just annoying and hasn't affected the plane's ability to hold altitude or fly an approach, but still something that we need to figure out.  PS - The pitch servo was replaced about 6 months ago, but the alarm issue didn't start until I put in the KI-300.

Anyone else had something like this happen?

 

Other porpoising issues lately in new autopilot installs on Mooneys were traced back to all control links needing to be lubed.

[globalpolygraph]

I'll try that first, thanks.

[juergenklicker]

Just got the KA-310 added to my panel yesterday and got it connected to my already existing KI-300. Test-flew the whole thing yesterday with one pattern in a hold and a coupled ILS approach. Works like a charm.

Now, if any of my two vacuum pumps or the KI-256, which is the one and only remaining vacuum instrument in my panel, act up in any way or when it's time for the next annual, whichever comes first, it's bye-bye time for anything vacuum in my M20K-262. I will have a grin on my face for a couple of days just thinking about the lost pounds and the maintenance savings associated with this.  

Juergen

[Hillard]

Juergen,

I'd think hard about whether you want to get rid of your vac system.  I had a KI300 and 310 fitted in December and have had to replace the Ki300 twice due first to an overheating issue and then (with a replacement unit) where the KI300 failed a couple of times after about 30 mins in cruise (see attached photo - the vac A/H tells the truth).  I agree that the system works well - when it works - but I am very glad that I'd kept my vac A/H as a backup.  BK have been good about replacing the units but I think that there has to be significant doubt about their reliability.

regards

John

[carusoam]

Juergen,

when you get a chance... add some location detail to your avatar data...

This helps other people know what time of day it is in your area...   

Some people actually sleep normal hours... 

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, juergenklicker said:

Just got the KA-310 added to my panel yesterday and got it connected to my already existing KI-300. Test-flew the whole thing yesterday with one pattern in a hold and a coupled ILS approach. Works like a charm.

Now, if any of my two vacuum pumps or the KI-256, which is the one and only remaining vacuum instrument in my panel, act up in any way or when it's time for the next annual, whichever comes first, it's bye-bye time for anything vacuum in my M20K-262. I will have a grin on my face for a couple of days just thinking about the lost pounds and the maintenance savings associated with this.  

Juergen

The KI-300 is based off of the Sandia Quattro, which is completely unreliable. They had to shut down for almost a year and re-certify and it seems they are worse now than ever. The idea of an easy replacement for the KI-256 is tempting but I would not be an early adopter on this one.