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How cheap is too cheap?


tgardnerh

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As I was bouncing through turbulence at 92 knots over the ground today, with my wife making faces from the right seat of my trusty cessna 152, I found myself thinking about the seemingly never ending stream of M20Cs on barnstormers, offered for not much more than the value of my current airplane. 

Just how cheap is too cheap for a mooney? If I'm willing to tolerate ugly paint, a ratty interior, and a strictly VFR panel, how cheap can I hope to find a mechanically sound Mooney with a mid-time engine that hasn't been abused?

Edited by tgardnerh
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Look at everything available... in any type of Mooneys...

Pick the M20C for example...

The bottom 10% are in the too cheap zone...

They are low cost to acquire, but the rest of everything that is worn out or in tough condition is going to get costly...

I used the C as an example, because that was my first airplane... it applies to all airplanes the same way...

Only the older the plane... the more wear challenges it can have endured....

 

Now, from the other direction... how much do you have in the budget?  Find a plane that is currently flying, and stored indoors.... and has many of the things you want in it already....

Your machine will be in the middle of the two extremes...

 

Don’t be surprised....

“... ugly paint, a ratty interior, and a strictly VFR panel, how cheap can I hope to find a mechanically sound Mooney with a mid-time engine that hasn't been abused?”

I paid 34k for this plane in Y2K... it went 10 years with me, and is still flying around the country... 19 years later...

 

Best regards,

-a-

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I paid $18k for my ‘64 C model.

I think I’m in about $55k so for total money spent since 2016. First annual crept into the five figure range. I stopped keeping track of money spent a long time ago. That doesn’t include hangar rental or annuals.

Definitely no such thing as a cheap aircraft. Even my C150 had an appetite. I see twins for $20k all the time.




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There are a couple of C's in the sub $30K range, listed on Barnstormers. They're both here in Colorado so I might be able to go by and take a look at them

If they were in good running condition, even without autopilots, GPS, etc. they might turn out to be good airplanes for that price. There are quite a number of C's listed in the high $40's to $50's range. I would not recommend spending that kind of money on a C without an autopilot or GPS.

Let me know if you'd like me to take a look at them.

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Bottom line is that acquisition can be nothing compared to maintaining and operating cost over a few years. A good well cared for bird without lots of deferred maintenance, is going to save you money over time. Way to many examples of people on these pages finding really cheap purchases only to soon regret the cost of keeping their bird flying due to unexpected maintenance cost. 

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5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

There are a couple of C's in the sub $30K range, listed on Barnstormers. T

<snip>

Let me know if you'd like me to take a look at them.

I'm in the extreme tire-kicking phase right now, the soonest I'm even in the neighborhood of thinking about buying is in two years, but thanks for the offer!  Those are, in fact, the airplanes that got me asking this question in the first place though.

4 minutes ago, kortopates said:

A good well cared for bird without lots of deferred maintenance, is going to save you money over time. 

My thoughts exactly--the last thing I want is to buy a "cheap" money pit that lives in the shop! 

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2 hours ago, tgardnerh said:
How much of this was fixing things that you wanted fixed, and how much was fixing things that were current or developing airworthiness issues?

 

The linkage rods are insanely expensive. New pucks, plugs, muffler overhaul, bushings, bearings, shoulder harnesses, Insight engine monitor with Carb sensor, reiff heater, LED landing light, Mooney SB rear spar kit, Lasar Downlock, LABOR! Lol.

Oh he mitigated some corrosion over near the rear seat area. No airworthiness issues; just lots of toys.

Expenses inflated to the sky when I decided to throw in a GTN and L3 Lynx...

Stuff adds up though when you decide to overhaul both mags, new vacuum pump, and then later overhaul the AI and heading indicator to solve the Century IIb issues..

 

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I bought an E in 2017 for $26k. “Ugly paint, a ratty interior and VFR panel” almost exactly describes it. It’s still like that, with the exception of a JPI 830 I added to the panel. With that said, l’ve spent well over $20 k on the first 2 annuals on deferred maintenance to ensure reliability. The only thing I would have done differently would be to bring it to someone like Maxwell Aviation for the first annual rather than the second one. Solid midtime engine, mid 140 knot  plane that I don’t hesitate to fly regularly on 600 mile crosscountry trips. I’m happy

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36 minutes ago, N6018Q said:

I bought an E in 2017 for $26k. “Ugly paint, a ratty interior and VFR panel” almost exactly describes it. It’s still like that, with the exception of a JPI 830 I added to the panel. With that said, l’ve spent well over $20 k on the first 2 annuals on deferred maintenance to ensure reliability. The only thing I would have done differently would be to bring it to someone like Maxwell Aviation for the first annual rather than the second one. Solid midtime engine, mid 140 knot  plane that I don’t hesitate to fly regularly on 600 mile crosscountry trips. I’m happy

how much of the 20k was stuff you expected from the pre buy? how much was surprise gotchas that only came up when you took it to maxwells?

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I bought what was at the time a really good example of a well maintained and reasonably equipped J model. It paid dividends because other than some general upkeep I have never been hit with a big expense, except for an expected an negotiated fuel tank seal. That will soon come to an end with a rebuilt exchange in my near future. 

Don’t buy cheap unless you really know how to evaluate. It can be expensive. 

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9 minutes ago, Bartman said:

I bought what was at the time a really good example of a well maintained and reasonably equipped J model. It paid dividends because other than some general upkeep I have never been hit with a big expense, except for an expected an negotiated fuel tank seal. That will soon come to an end with a rebuilt exchange in my near future. 

Don’t buy cheap unless you really know how to evaluate. It can be expensive. 

Can I ask what you paid?  I'm trying to figure out where the line is between "buying cheap" and "getting a good deal on solid mechanicals because it looks like 1967 inside" :-) 

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You’ve got to ask, why is it cheap? Remember that the seller knows more than you will know until a couple of annuals have been completed. The pre-buy will only catch (hopefully) show stoppers. Lots of little things add up. Mooney isn’t really making many airplanes. They are mostly selling parts for old ones. Parts are thus expensive. I think Mike Busch’s advice to buy the newest, cleanest, lowest time airframe you can find/afford is sound advice for lowest total cost of ownership. 

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Just now, PT20J said:

You’ve got to ask, why is it cheap? Remember that the seller knows more than you will know until a couple of annuals have been completed. The pre-buy will only catch (hopefully) show stoppers. Lots of little things add up. Mooney isn’t really making many airplanes. They are mostly selling parts for old ones. Parts are thus expensive. I think Mike Busch’s advice to buy the newest, cleanest, lowest time airframe you can find/afford is sound advice for lowest total cost of ownership. 

Skip

I think you're missing my question--I know I don't want the cheapest one on barnstormers, what i'm trying to figure out is where the line is between "good deal" and "you'll regret it."  Is it the case that all the M20Cs that you see advertised asking between 28 and 35k are probably basket cases?  Or are some of them perfectly good airplanes that have been kept up, but never really upgraded? (And that will likely continue on just fine without any nasty surprises)

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6 minutes ago, tgardnerh said:

I think you're missing my question--I know I don't want the cheapest one on barnstormers, what i'm trying to figure out is where the line is between "good deal" and "you'll regret it."  Is it the case that all the M20Cs that you see advertised asking between 28 and 35k are probably basket cases?  Or are some of them perfectly good airplanes that have been kept up, but never really upgraded? (And that will likely continue on just fine without any nasty surprises)

Call Jimmy at All American - he’s been valuing Mooneys for 25 years and has sold hundreds of them. And, he’s fair and honest (that’s why he’s been in the business so long).

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1 minute ago, PT20J said:

Call Jimmy at All American - he’s been valuing Mooneys for 25 years and has sold hundreds of them. And, he’s fair and honest (that’s why he’s been in the business so long).

Skip

Thanks!  I'll give him a call to get a feel for the market.

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22 minutes ago, tgardnerh said:

I think you're missing my question--I know I don't want the cheapest one on barnstormers, what i'm trying to figure out is where the line is between "good deal" and "you'll regret it."  Is it the case that all the M20Cs that you see advertised asking between 28 and 35k are probably basket cases?  Or are some of them perfectly good airplanes that have been kept up, but never really upgraded? (And that will likely continue on just fine without any nasty surprises)

The question wasn't likely missed. Unfortunately, there isn't one correct answer since every plane has it's own unique story. Some planes are overpriced, some are priced well, and others are simply misrepresented. Cutting through the chaff takes an enormous amount of willpower and effort.

Finding the real story of a plane can prove to be an expensive educational undertaking consuming large amounts of both time and finances. One never knows the real story of a plane until they have to begin wrenching on it... or begin stroking the checkbook so someone else will wrench on it.

 

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Let’s see...

1) There are low cost planes...

These are the ones that have no goodies... no GPS for IFR flight... no Auto Pilot... no HSI... Analog radios, that are marking time...

Using this for modern day IFR training... becomes less likely...

 

2) There are cheap planes... take the low cost plane and then remove...

Paint.... bare in places doesn’t protect things very well...

Interior... the place you spend the most time... wife and family don’t see it the way you do.

Engine hours.... close to TBO (there is nothing left... even the parts are worn.... )

Prop hours... some props are very old... the cheap plane’s prop is dented, cut short, and thin...

Damage history and who fixed it... something to read up on...

 

Timeline: Two year’s before you buy a plane is perfect!  

It can take a year to figure out what you want to have... and another year to find it...

I’m glad you started this thread... just in time!

 

You can’t rush greatness...   :)

Best regards,

-a-

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So I have an M20E for sale that is completely sorted vs. taking an entry into the unknown.  I did that and it can be done, but it takes time (years in my case) to have an airframe that is fully sorted and reliable.  What is the price on that?  You have to decide, but go in with eyes wide open looking at logbooks.  What has been done and just as important what has NOT.  Resealing tanks on a vintage Mooney (Complete strip and reseal) is $7500 before you talk about transporting to location and time.  You will want to spend money making your plane “your own” with upgrades on airframe P&I and avionics.  I am talking about necessity items like battery/starter/electrical.  Brakes/engine/glass/functional instruments.  Necessity stuff.  Be wise and informed.  There are NO bargains on vintage Mooney airplanes.  You get what you pay for and often LESS than what you pay for.  Good luck in your search.

Edited by RogueOne
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If you need/want an example of a young guy that bought a low cost M20D/C... and has put in a significant amount of labor and learned how to do that too... certified planes have a world of rules to become aware of...

Find Alex... he has written a continuous thread for years about his experience, including great pics... he has gone from noob to knowledgeable in a short time... it probably doesn’t seem so short to him... :)

Owning a low cost Mooney is a great way to begin your ownership experience... owning a cheap airplane can be a shorter experience than you want...

Also look into PPIs... to see what they are all about...

All the decisions are yours... the advice has to fit your needs... some advice you get, may be better for others...

You need to find out what is right for you... that’s a tough one.

I sensed a window that was open, it was buy, or wait for decades... I got lucky... my plane was mostly low cost, just short of cheap... when it sold a decade later... it was cheap... paint was thinner, engine hours were used, interior was more worn...  the plane had strong bones...? Good for somebody looking to throw money at it to start new...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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3 hours ago, tgardnerh said:

how much of the 20k was stuff you expected from the pre buy? how much was surprise gotchas that only came up when you took it to maxwells?

I was aware of about $5k- tires, pucks, hoses, 500 hr mag overhauls. The rest - servo overhauls, extensive wiring issues, additional mag issues became apparent after 4 to 5 hours of flight. In my opinion, the engine monitor was absolutely necessary. My prebuy guy wasn’t a Mooney specialist and that wound up costing me additional amu’s. I guess I was probably pretty lucky, didn’t know anything about cam wear, oil analysis, etc (didn’t find this site until after I bought the plane), but my 5 or so oil analysis’ have come back good. So essentially I have $45 tied up in it and it still has a crappy paint job and basic panel. I’m good with the panel but really want to not be embarrassed to show someone my plane because of the paint. Like Anthony said, wife and family don’t see it the way you do.

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If you have a year or two before you are planning on buying then do some tracking. When I was looking I made an Excel Spreadsheet and tracked all the Mooneys on the market that fit my potential price range. They were C's, E's, a few F's, and the D I ended up buying. The great thing about Excel was I could just keep adding columns for what I was tracking. 

  • Price
  • Price Changes including when the price dropped and how much
  • Year
  • Model
  • Serial #
  • Tail # 
  • State/City
  • Exterior Color
  • Quality of paint 1-10
  • Interior Color/Material
  • Quality of Interior 1-10
  • Panel Layout a Scale of 1-10 (This is just subjective as to what looked good to me, surprising how many different ways there are to layout a panel)
  • AFTT
  • Engine Overhaul Date
  • TSMOH
  • Type Prop
  • Hours on Prop
  • Date of last annual
  • Listing of Avionics
  • Columns with links to current ads. (Controller, Barnstormer, Mooneyland, Aerotrader)

Just looked and I had 40 planes on my spreadsheet priced from $26,999-$65,500. The market is different now than when I bought mine a little over 2 1/2 years ago, but if you spend the next 6-12 months tracking all the planes in your potential range you will get a good feel for what is "too cheap" and what you are really looking for. 

The other thing I believe, is that when you get ready to buy, it is just as important to do your pre-buy on the seller as the plane. The guy selling the plane I bought flew it the hour from Cottonwood, AZ down to Chandler, AZ to meet me and show me the plane. We agreed on a price pending an inspection and shook on it. He offered to fly it to an MSC to have the pre-buy done on it, wasn't hiding anything. I didn't have a complex rating (I didn't even have 60 total hours) so after the purchase he delivered the plane to me in CA in exchange for me buying his plane ticket back. The plane was being flown regularly, he was selling because he was moving up to an Ovation.

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