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Heavy 66E ?


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Attached are the original w&b chart and the current W&B done to my new bird.  Thoughts as to why she is heavier than ALL the book empty weights of of this era?  My CG is extremely aft in all set ups... Even with a 20# gain of the McCauley tri-prop.

Thanks

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That is one heavy E! Mine, a 1965 M20E, shows empty weight @ 1693lbs, Empty CG @ 45.32in, so useful load @ 882lbs.

Can't help you with an expert point of view, since I'm no expert, but I thought I would share my numbers so you can compare.

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Probably not what you want to hear, but how much fuel does your plane hold, and what weight per gallon did he use? The standard is 6 lbs./gal., but that would mean you were full and can carry 77 gals. when the plane was weighed! If you have less than 77 gal. capacity, then your UL will be even less! If you have the standard 52 gal. of useful fuel, then your fuel would only weigh 52 x 6 or 312 lbs. instead of 462. That would put your UL 150 lbs. less or only 578! And that is only if you were full when he weighed it. Less than full and even less UL.

Do you have the original equipment list and its weight then as well as what you have added/removed? I would also be interested to see any of the w&b forms done between then and now. Just looking at the POH for a 1971, it shows the empty weight to be around 1,600 lbs.

Not trying to be a smart a$$, but was someone sitting in the plane when it was weighed?

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Yep definitely the fuel weight has got to be an error.  I’m surprised with your aft cg as well... is the battery aft?  Is there a lot of heavy equipment in the aft avionics compartment?  Something doesn’t seem right...

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There are a few other random things to consider but they won’t make a huge difference... 50 years ago, my F weight and balance didn’t include oil in the empty weight.  Newer airplanes do.  Also, stuff like fire extinguishers, towbars, etc weren’t included but some of that stuff is in newer airplanes.

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8 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Probably not what you want to hear, but how much fuel does your plane hold, and what weight per gallon did he use? The standard is 6 lbs./gal., but that would mean you were full and can carry 77 gals. when the plane was weighed! If you have less than 77 gal. capacity, then your UL will be even less! If you have the standard 52 gal. of useful fuel, then your fuel would only weigh 52 x 6 or 312 lbs. instead of 462. That would put your UL 150 lbs. less or only 578! And that is only if you were full when he weighed it. Less than full and even less UL.

Do you have the original equipment list and its weight then as well as what you have added/removed? I would also be interested to see any of the w&b forms done between then and now. Just looking at the POH for a 1971, it shows the empty weight to be around 1,600 lbs.

Not trying to be a smart a$$, but was someone sitting in the plane when it was weighed?

Your math has me confused. If the IA miscalculated the fuel capacity he’d get 150 of UL back...

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1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

Your math has me confused. If the IA miscalculated the fuel capacity he’d get 150 of UL back...

I thought that at first too, but then 

2309 weight - 312 (52 gal fuel) = 1997 empty weight.

 

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52 minutes ago, moonlighting7 said:

Attached are the original w&b chart and the current W&B done to my new bird.  Thoughts as to why she is heavier than ALL the book empty weights of of this era?  My CG is extremely aft in all set ups... Even with a 20# gain of the McCauley tri-prop.

Thanks

90B35863-7F60-4F3D-B465-66B370B4CF09.jpeg

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Your 66 E model is nearly 170lbs heavier than my 67 F.  I am certain they we’re much closer when they left the factory.

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Id get the plane reweighed. But id also take all the fuel out except for unusable. There has to be a mistake. Before you reweigh it, clean the entire plane. Get everything out of the cabin. Small stuff adds up. This is why my aircraft is never getting near a scale. It seems like anytime a mooney gets next to a scale, you lose some money and at least 100lbs of useful load.

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1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

Id get the plane reweighed. But id also take all the fuel out except for unusable. There has to be a mistake. Before you reweigh it, clean the entire plane. Get everything out of the cabin. Small stuff adds up. This is why my aircraft is never getting near a scale. It seems like anytime a mooney gets next to a scale, you lose some money and at least 100lbs of useful load.

It helps to have a friendly shop. I put mine on the scales a few times. It wasn't until we started getting numbers we wanted, that I said to go ahead and print a new W&B. As you said, a good cleaning, vacuum under the seats, empty all the usual stuff from the hat rack, wash the dirt off, and empty the tanks. It all adds up.

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2 hours ago, drapo said:

That is one heavy E! Mine, a 1965 M20E, shows empty weight @ 1693 lbs, Empty CG @ 45.32in, so useful load @ 882lbs.

Can't help you an expert point of view, since I'm no expert, but I thought I would share my numbers so you can compare.

My 65 E model (serial 821) is 1608 lbs empty, cg at 46.4, so useful load is 967 lbs.  Savings from getting the plane power alternator, Sky Tec 149 NL starter, replacement of Narco 810 and Trimble TNL 2000A with a GNS 480, newer governor.  Maybe saved 70 lbs over the 14 years of ownership.

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And I checked with my mechanic, and he has  his scales calibrated and certified every year. Your W&B looks like your mechanic's scales are just about 4 months short of 2 years.

Is what my mechanic hold true for everyone, or is he just anal about making sure nothing gets out of whack?

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Never accept an aircraft weight that was done by calculating fuel out. It is guaranteed to be wrong, since you don't know the actual weight of the fuel in the tanks without checking the specific gravity and using a calibrated pump to fill the plane. That's why the correct procedure, in every maintenance manual, is to empty the fuel tanks. Some may require adding a specific amount of unusable fuel, per tank, back after the plane was drained. This, along with leveling the plane, is to establish the correct empty weight CG.

60 gallons of fuel can vary by 18 pounds, depending on density of the fuel on that day. And how do you know how many gallons were in the tanks? That can vary by several gallons per tank, depending on how they were filled. 

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28 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Never accept an aircraft weight that was done by calculating fuel out. It is guaranteed to be wrong, since you don't know the actual weight of the fuel in the tanks without checking the specific gravity and using a calibrated pump to fill the plane. That's why the correct procedure, in every maintenance manual, is to empty the fuel tanks. Some may require adding a specific amount of unusable fuel, per tank, back after the plane was drained. This, along with leveling the plane, is to establish the correct empty weight CG.

60 gallons of fuel can vary by 18 pounds, depending on density of the fuel on that day. And how do you know how many gallons were in the tanks? That can vary by several gallons per tank, depending on how they were filled. 

The instructions on how to weigh my J go so far as to state where the seats should be set, flaps in the full up position, and how to tell if it is level before starting the entire process.

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Do you have a paper trail of the changes to w&b since new? All the equipment adds, removals, mods, etc? Every A&P and avionics shop who makes changes has to document the changes made and the new W$B.

FWIW, My ‘66E has “only” 900# useful. It left Kerrville with empty weight (no fuel, no oil) of 1611. (964 useful) but bladders, speed brakes, one piece belly, speed mods, autopilot, etc, etc net to a current empty weight (calculated) of 1675.

There’s a rumor that the plane, like her owner, might weigh several pounds heavy if she was weighted.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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My E is 1676 lbs 47.7" with fuel drained and no oil per the Maintenance Manual procedure. I would have the whole process redone (not just the math on the fuel) and have them follow Mooney's procedures seeing how they screwed the pooch on the first try

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When I went shopping one of the first questions I'd ask before going to see the plane was what the useful was.  My AP told me that a heavy plane that can't be explained by equipment may be indicative of repairs from mishaps.  I believe the post originator previously mentioned in another post that his new E has long range 77gal tanks, so that would solve the mystery additional 150 lbs  77 gal - std 52 gal.  Also don't forget that not all of that fuel is "usable" so it becomes part of the planes empty weight.  If it has bladders there will be more unusable fuel = more weight = less useful.  The plane has had some nice panel upgrades that should have saved some weight.  However perhaps some of the speed mods added a few lbs.  Not entirely comparable because mine is a C model, but my useful load is 1,028.45 lbs with a CG of 44.17" with two blade scimitar prop.  My batter is in the cowl and nose weight is almost 100 lbs less than yours and somehow you still have an aft CG.  If you do a pre-purchase inspection, you may want to request an actual weight & balance or do it at annual.  Last year I sold a plane and buyer at pre-buy said didn't want it because it was more than 300 lbs heavier than I said.  I asked to see the W&B his mechanic did and I realized the difference was divisible by 9 indicating a number transposition.  Sure enough a number was transposed (no way the right wing was 270 lbs heavier than the left).  His Mech was embarrassed when he weighed again and was within 2lbs of my certificate.  The point is often W&Bs use the previous as a starting point and get adjusted for equipment in/out.  If someone made an error along the way it just gets carried forward and compounded if not caught.  

My question..... so how does one get 1,028 # into a Mooney 20C anyway?  LOL.  I guess true meaning of, "if you get it in the plane, you can haul it".

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50 minutes ago, Tcraft938 said:

My question..... so how does one get 1,028 # into a Mooney 20C anyway?  LOL.  I guess true meaning of, "if you get it in the plane, you can haul it".

My C has useful of 970, and I've only been there when flying with 4 adults. With Operation Airdrop, I landed at Raleigh with almost 600 lb available, the only single listed with more than 300 lb. But I filled up well before hitting max weight . . . .

Not sure how an E weighs almost 1850 lb! Was the plane correctly leveled prior to weighing, with all "stuff" taken out, carpets washed and dried, plane washed and dried, wheel wells cleaned out, etc.? Otherwise I'm baffled . . . .

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1 hour ago, Tcraft938 said:

When I went shopping one of the first questions I'd ask before going to see the plane was what the useful was.  My AP told me that a heavy plane that can't be explained by equipment may be indicative of repairs from mishaps.  I believe the post originator previously mentioned in another post that his new E has long range 77gal tanks, so that would solve the mystery additional 150 lbs  77 gal - std 52 gal.  Also don't forget that not all of that fuel is "usable" so it becomes part of the planes empty weight.  If it has bladders there will be more unusable fuel = more weight = less useful.  The plane has had some nice panel upgrades that should have saved some weight.  However perhaps some of the speed mods added a few lbs.  Not entirely comparable because mine is a C model, but my useful load is 1,028.45 lbs with a CG of 44.17" with two blade scimitar prop.  My batter is in the cowl and nose weight is almost 100 lbs less than yours and somehow you still have an aft CG.  If you do a pre-purchase inspection, you may want to request an actual weight & balance or do it at annual.  Last year I sold a plane and buyer at pre-buy said didn't want it because it was more than 300 lbs heavier than I said.  I asked to see the W&B his mechanic did and I realized the difference was divisible by 9 indicating a number transposition.  Sure enough a number was transposed (no way the right wing was 270 lbs heavier than the left).  His Mech was embarrassed when he weighed again and was within 2lbs of my certificate.  The point is often W&Bs use the previous as a starting point and get adjusted for equipment in/out.  If someone made an error along the way it just gets carried forward and compounded if not caught.  

My question..... so how does one get 1,028 # into a Mooney 20C anyway?  LOL.  I guess true meaning of, "if you get it in the plane, you can haul it".

Easier than you think. Two couples (males@200lbs each and females@130lbs each) Full tanks 312lbs and 50lbs of baggage.

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2 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Easier than you think. Two couples (males@200lbs each and females@130lbs each) Full tanks 312lbs and 50lbs of baggage.

even with your example, that's still 80 lbs under gross, so I guess throw in some luggage.  Getting 4 in a C would be a challenge especially the ladies in the back seat.  Sure to be a cold dinner conversation   LOL

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