Jump to content

Don’t Cross Red!


M016576

Recommended Posts

Somewhat related and I thought interesting.   I might have been at a Texas school when the next days A-10 fly over stopped in.   2 access doors and 2 switches will get you a ladder to the cockpit.  and then they just left it there overnight.   I would say attractive nuisance if you ask me.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

Somewhat related and I thought interesting.   I might have been at a Texas school when the next days A-10 fly over stopped in.   2 access doors and 2 switches will get you a ladder to the cockpit.  and then they just left it there overnight.   I would say attractive nuisance if you ask me.

Different aircraft have different security requirements based on the classification of their hardware.  Some military jets can be parked in unclassified, or on civilian ramps without guards.  Some cannot.

As for the complexity of starting one of these fighters... their really isn’t much to it.  Open a single panel on the F-18, and you can open the canopy and deploy the boarding ladder.  One switch turns on the APU.  Then it’s just a matter of cranking the motors using apu bleed air- very simple (no different than any other turbine, really).  A F-15 doesn’t even have a battery... the canopy is controlled by a pneumatic accumulator- the control handle is right in the side of the fuselage- easy to access.  Boarding steps are build into the side of the jet, and a small set of steps extend out the bottom, in the event one doesn’t have a boarding ladder.

Edited by M016576
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many moons ago, I was USAF Security Police at a dual use airport and guarded F-15s and A-10s.  The F-15s were on alert (i.e., fully armed), and we took the red line pretty seriously.   Deadly force was authorized to stop an intruder.  Thankfully, I only had to yell at a couple people who didn't understand where they were when the strolled over the line.  

At another base, we had a civilian who tried to steal an OV-10.  We had to save the intruder from the airplane mechanics who were beating the crap out of him with wrenches when he tried to start the engines.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay guys I’m back in MA. We had a fun trip with what I hope are great memories for Ben. This moment in OR was not the one I would have chosen to document... but thanks for the pics... Ben has some from a different angle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Okay guys I’m back in MA. We had a fun trip with what I hope are great memories for Ben. This moment in OR was not the one I would have chosen to document... but thanks for the pics... Ben has some from a different angle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry, but I've got to ask for a narrative to go with the pics... If you don't mind, I'm curious what happened and what we can learn from this.  :blink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, but I've got to ask for a narrative to go with the pics... If you don't mind, I'm curious what happened and what we can learn from this.  :blink:



We were taxiing for departure, talking to ground control. I was not looking for a red line. Ground control noticed that I missed the turn to the parallel and told me to stop, then to make a 180. As I was complying he told me to hold position then to shut down.

The MP accepted my assertion that I had not crossed the line, he checked my licenses... I assume that will be the end of it... except on MS, a public, permanent forum.

Lesson? Situational Awareness. An IPad and a GTN 750 with Safe Taxi didn’t prevent a missed turn.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

 

 


We were taxiing for departure, talking to ground control. I was not looking for a red line. Ground control noticed that I missed the turn to the parallel and told me to stop, then to make a 180. As I was complying he told me to hold position then to shut down.

The MP accepted my assertion that I had not crossed the line, he checked my licenses... I assume that will be the end of it... except on MS, a public, permanent forum.

Lesson? Situational Awareness. An IPad and a GTN 750 with Safe Taxi didn’t prevent a missed turn.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks Bob.  Sounds like an annoyance more than anything.  Glad it ended well.

 I'll bet you could get @M016576 to delete^h^h^h^h^h^h edit this thread...   It would be like the points on Who's Line is it Anyway, or after the "flashy thing" is used on Men in Black.  It would just disappear.

FWIW I still think you have the fastest looking Mooney in the universe.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I think it is only through tribal knowledge that I know about military areas and red lines and such.   So I checked the AIM   In runway markings it only talks about MIL signs and SIDA.   Other than people with guns  What regulations apply here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

 

 

Snip...

 Ground control noticed that I missed the turn to the parallel and told me to stop, then to make a 180. As I was complying he told me to hold position then to shut down.

 

 

Damn!

You're taking this well; I'd be pretty PO'ed at the ground controller.  It's almost like he set you up!  I mean, you made an honest mistake missing a turn, then he told you what to do, knowing full well where you were, you did what he said....then he rats you out.

If he'd kept his mouth shut that would have been the end of it!

And, it sounds like you didn't even cross the dreaded RED LINE!

SHEESH!

Edited by MikeOH
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/3/2019 at 12:02 PM, M016576 said:

Redacted.

And yet it lives on thanks to M20F ;)

I was picking up what you were laying down my friend.  I learned something so thank you for posing.  Bob has a beautiful ride under ANY circumstances.  Always glad to sneak a peak of his Super E!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

So I think it is only through tribal knowledge that I know about military areas and red lines and such.   So I checked the AIM   In runway markings it only talks about MIL signs and SIDA.   Other than people with guns  What regulations apply here?

Probably none.  I seriously doubt the Faa cares about the red line and the USAF is barely able to communicate within DOD, never mind another agency.  I’m sorry that happened, but I bet those SPs were quick to stop you because it happens all the time in that exact spot and the bureaucracy is too terribly busy with paperwork to put up a big red stop sign.  

And yeah, with no keys or special codes you can get a “locked” F-15 airborne in about 7 minutes.  And that’s if you wait for the INS to spin up!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I passed the "red line" big time once. I was flying an MU2 to KVGT and they put me on a vector directly toward Nellis and I said I though they were sending me there. They came back and said call the tower at Nellis, they're waiting to hear from you. I did and they let me fly down the runway at 100' past all the hundred of so front line fighters, bombers, AWACs, tankers, etc.  I pulled up turned right and called KVGT for a landing. Nobody scrambled the F-16s on me so I guess I got away with it. 

Also got cleared right through and directly over the Tonapah Test Range airport KTNX right through R-4809 one Sunday in my Mooney at about 2,000 AGL. Unfortunately all the hangars were closed. Couldn't see any airplanes (but lots of hangars). 

And, oh, BTW, I think this thread has served a very useful purpose Bob is a real nice guy (met him once at OSH a while back) and his "transgression" has educated many,

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites



And, oh, BTW, I think this thread has served a very useful purpose Bob is a real nice guy (met him once at OSH a while back) and his "transgression" has educated many,


Thanks, it certainly will make me more careful to know where boundaries are... obliviousness generally does not serve a pilot well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, I've never seen, noticed, been told about, or knowingly encountered any red lines.   So this thread has increased my awareness. 

I'd bet they are a bear to see at night, especially in a 1960's C with a single landing light pointing up at 3 degrees and no taxi light. :o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, I've never seen, noticed, been told about, or knowingly encountered any red lines.   So this thread has increased my awareness. 
I'd bet they are a bear to see at night, especially in a 1960's C with a single landing light pointing up at 3 degrees and no taxi light.


Yeah, I am not blaming anyone except myself but Istm the tarmac marking at KLA could be more prominent to alert witless transients. Ground control could be more proactively helpful. Again, not blaming anyone... when I restarted engine and called ground control I said “943RW, properly chastised, taxi for departure.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • Like 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An easier way would have been for the ground control to ask Bob to hold position.  GC calls the MPs and advises of the situation. They drive out to the taxiway at the red line. Bob completes his 180 and off he goes.  No need for a stop and shut down.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I'm looking at KLMT on Google Earth and I can't figure out what happened here.  I gather the pilot, who shall remain unnamed by me, must have taxied south on D, perhaps with the intention of turning left on E.  But there's no line across the taxiway to indicate a restricted area if you miss the turn onto E.  There *is* a thin red line along the west side of D demarcating the National Guard ramp area, like the thin red line I'm sure many of us have taxied past that signifies the security boundary around the terminal of an airport with commercial passenger service.  But there'd be no way to taxi from the GA ramp for takeoff on 7 without driving down D past all those beautiful fighters.  Is the issue that the pilot might have crossed a wing over the red line while making a 180 on D as directed by the controller to get back to E?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of the embarrassment it may have caused someone, I appreciate this thread.  I operate out of an airport with an ANG ramp.  For the next couple weeks they are conducting "Jaded Thunder" a live fire, joint operation utilizing the local weapons range.  There will be lots of military planes on the airport and I wouldn't have thought twice about taxiing right up next to them for a good picture.  Now, I'll at least make sure they aren't parked in the restricted area (that I didn't even know existed before this thread caused me to look it up).

For the record, if I ever do something embarrassing, stupid, dangerous, or that would in any other way reflect poorly on me as a pilot, PLEASE TALK ABOUT IT OPENLY!  If there is the possibility of keeping someone else safe or otherwise out of trouble by learning from my mistake, I'll deal with the embarrassment.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

For the record, if I ever do something embarrassing, stupid, dangerous, or that would in any other way reflect poorly on me as a pilot, PLEASE TALK ABOUT IT OPENLY!  If there is the possibility of keeping someone else safe or otherwise out of trouble by learning from my mistake, I'll deal with the embarrassment.

This for me, too.   I don't think we can afford for aviation to cave to the temptation to suppress safe operation information on behalf of people's egos.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob indicated he’s glad people can learn. It’s been more other people on the thread what would Freud call it... projecting that they would in fact want to remain nameless if they did something to expose their pilot-ego. 

If I do something stupid, please for Pete’s sake, call me out. @Marcopolo called me out on forgetting to do a mag check on shutdown before I parked the plane for annual last week. Thanks Ron! I appreciate it.  Going into maintenance this is even more important.   Next time I won’t forget and I looked at my checklist and it ain’t on there. Something to be fixed.  Every time I do a BFR or training, I get critiqued.  Thanks for making me a better safer pilot, CFIs.  If I do something stupid and appears dangerous, I hope that another pilot would have the balls/ovaries to approach me and tell me about it. We should be like one big flying family with no fragile egos. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/7/2019 at 12:59 PM, bradp said:

Bob indicated he’s glad people can learn. It’s been more other people on the thread what would Freud call it... projecting that they would in fact want to remain nameless if they did something to expose their pilot-ego. 

If I do something stupid, please for Pete’s sake, call me out. @Marcopolo called me out on forgetting to do a mag check on shutdown before I parked the plane for annual last week. Thanks Ron! I appreciate it.  Going into maintenance this is even more important.   Next time I won’t forget and I looked at my checklist and it ain’t on there. Something to be fixed.  Every time I do a BFR or training, I get critiqued.  Thanks for making me a better safer pilot, CFIs.  If I do something stupid and appears dangerous, I hope that another pilot would have the balls/ovaries to approach me and tell me about it. We should be like one big flying family with no fragile egos. 

Since I'm kind of being called out here, I guess I'll respond.  The reason I asked that people contact me first if this ever happens to me (not that I stay nameless or that the information can't be posted) is because, IMO, the pilot should have at least had a say in how and where this was shared.  Everyone on here recognizes his plane.  Especially in light of his history posting here, he should at least get a chance to explain what happened from his perspective before his mistake is exhibited to the entire world.  Maybe it'd be a different answer if he was videotaped buzzing a school bus full of kids at 50' AGL, but that's not what happened.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/6/2019 at 9:42 PM, Bob_Belville said:

 

 


We were taxiing for departure, talking to ground control. I was not looking for a red line. Ground control noticed that I missed the turn to the parallel and told me to stop, then to make a 180. As I was complying he told me to hold position then to shut down.

The MP accepted my assertion that I had not crossed the line, he checked my licenses... I assume that will be the end of it... except on MS, a public, permanent forum.

Lesson? Situational Awareness. An IPad and a GTN 750 with Safe Taxi didn’t prevent a missed turn.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

Not really the type of international fame one would wish for.  Glad that it all worked out.

Clarence

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.