Jump to content

Tips for ifr approaches in the m20c


Recommended Posts

Hello Mooniacs 

I have only 100 hrs in my mooney and I do ifr approaches from time to time, some of them in actual IMC, I know how to fly my airplane but I'd appreciate any tips for flying different types of approaches in the moony, like on of the things I learned to do is to put landing gear down before intercepting the Localizer on ils otherwise it'll be hard to slow down while descending on ils. 

Thanks in advance, you guys are the best group in the world. 

 

MOUSTAFA JANAT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MJ,

Seriously consider finding a MAPA class near you...

It is a great weekend activity that includes some personalized flying in your plane with a Mooney specific CFII...

The course comes complete with a handbook that has a few paragraphs and collections of data specific to your plane model...

Plus you get to meet a few other MSers... and other Mooney people in your neighborhood...

Best regards,

-a-

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Janat83 said:

Hello Mooniacs 

I have only 100 hrs in my mooney and I do ifr approaches from time to time, some of them in actual IMC, I know how to fly my airplane but I'd appreciate any tips for flying different types of approaches in the moony, like on of the things I learned to do is to put landing gear down before intercepting the Localizer on ils otherwise it'll be hard to slow down while descending on ils. 

Thanks in advance, you guys are the best group in the world. 

 

MOUSTAFA JANAT

It would help to know if your C has electric or hydraulic flaps and gear, as some of the speeds are different, which affects the process.

I generally enter the approach cleanat 23"/2300, and slow towards 105 mph soon after the IAF, and drop Takeoff Flaps. At the FAF or 1-1/2 dots above glideslope intercept, I drop the gear and descend at 105mph until breakout. Then slow down to 85 mph on final, Idle Throttle when I know I have the field made, just like every landing.

This won't work with hydraulic flaps, Vfe on those is too low.

The MAPA PPP is an excellent program, and will teach you a lot more about flying YOUR airplane.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nasty sacreligious  secret. An instrument approach in a C is no different than an instrument approach in an Arrow or Cutlass (and most any single retract, but I mention those because they are common and approach speeds are equivalent if you are remaining in Category A).

Learn the standard configurations and speeds for the phases of flight. That should have been part of your instrument training, even if it was in a 172.

Get to your final approach speed clean before the FAF. Drop the gear as you intercept the glide path for an ILS or APV. In calm conditions, You won't even need to reduce power unless you also choose to use approach flaps (an option, not a requirement). For something without vertical guidance, you will also want to reduce power to increase your descent rate. You might also want to use approach flaps on those.

That is not to denigrate the incredible value  the MAPA program (and other type-specific training) provides. But instrument approaches in single retracts are very similar, with fairly minor variations.  If you are not going to try the MAPA training route, find a decent CFII (and yes, at least some Mooney experience would be helpful) and experiment on various setups to see which work for you. 

(And, do a search for the MAPA manual. It does contain incredibly useful information and there are a few copies floating around the Internet.)

Edited by midlifeflyer
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Get to your final approach speed clean before the FAF. Drop the gear as you intercept the glide path for an ILS or APV. 

This is what I do and I also get 1/2 flaps on as quickly as possible, full rich, full prop, and then I don’t touch anything till I land or go missed.  I never use more then 1/2 flaps on a approach so that I am always configured for optimum go around. 

Mooneys are very stable and when configured you can essentially just play with the trim wheel a bit to stay on the glide slope.  If you set up as Midlifeflyer suggests not much else to do but look for the runway.  

What I do not advise is dropping or slowing too soon.  You will heat your cylinders up flying around with all the drag out and low/slow in level flight in IMC is not a place I like to be, small  errors in that configuration can easily turn you into a statistic.  If I am slow I want to be with the nose pointed down.  

Usually around 1-2 NM from FAF you can bring it down to gear speed without shock cooling or having to get too crazy.  The gear comes down fine if you are a bit above gear speed because you missed timed it and once that is out it’s like a brick.   You can also step on a rudder for a little side slip which is very effective when needed as well. 

After probably 10 approaches you will figure it out and then it will be like riding a bike.  I had to really actually think what I do to respond, as at this point it is more a flow for me.  You will find it the same.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Hank said:

It would help to know if your C has electric or hydraulic flaps and gear, as some of the speeds are different, which affects the process.

I generally enter the approach cleanat 23"/2300, and slow towards 105 mph soon after the IAF, and drop Takeoff Flaps. At the FAF or 1-1/2 dots above glideslope intercept, I drop the gear and descend at 105mph until breakout. Then slow down to 85 mph on final, Idle Throttle when I know I have the field made, just like every landing.

This won't work with hydraulic flaps, Vfe on those is too low.

The MAPA PPP is an excellent program, and will teach you a lot more about flying YOUR airplane.

Thanks for your input, I have 1968 M20C with Johnson Bar and hydraulic flaps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

MJ,

Seriously consider finding a MAPA class near you...

It is a great weekend activity that includes some personalized flying in your plane with a Mooney specific CFII...

The course comes complete with a handbook that has a few paragraphs and collections of data specific to your plane model...

Plus you get to meet a few other MSers... and other Mooney people in your neighborhood...

Best regards,

-a-

I'm in Southern California, their events schedule doesn't show any near event in future, I'll send an email and see when thy'll come here, thanks for the valuable information.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Janat83 said:

I'm in Southern California, their events schedule doesn't show any near event in future, I'll send an email and see when thy'll come here, thanks for the valuable information.

In the southwest we do it every year spring alternating between Santa Maria and and a spot in AZ or NV that has been in at Henderson NV the last couple of years. You just missed it in last April in Santa Maria, so next April it should be in Henderson, but the next closest one with be Ogden UT in October; not far in a Mooney. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, kortopates said:

In the southwest we do it every year spring alternating between Santa Maria and and a spot in AZ or NV that has been in at Henderson NV the last couple of years. You just missed it in last April in Santa Maria, so next April it should be in Henderson, but the next closest one with be Ogden UT in October; not far in a Mooney. 

Thanks for the information, I'll try to make it Ogden UT next October

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use my power settings below. Paste them on your panel.  You'll be glad you did ;)   Slow down and drop gear just outside FAF.  Dump in full flaps about a mile out or upon breaking out of clouds.  Do it exactly the same way every time for a while.  IR is tough but rewarding in equal measure.

 

image.png.5f28939e5f657ecba292c07d40e36199.png

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, DXB said:

Use my power settings below. Paste them on your panel.  You'll be glad you did ;)   Slow down and drop gear just outside FAF.  Dump in full flaps about a mile out or upon breaking out of clouds.  Do it exactly the same way every time for a while.  IR is tough but rewarding in equal measure.

 

image.png.5f28939e5f657ecba292c07d40e36199.png

 

 

 

Thank you very much, I'll make sure it'll be on my panel somewhere in front of me , I have done many approaches in my mooney but i was looking to see those tips , and I'm really considering going to MAPA course to master it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DXB said:

Dump in full flaps about a mile out or upon breaking out of clouds.  

I wouldn’t recommend full flaps in IMC, if you really need them on breakout, maybe.  Even then dumping more flaps at 200 AGL is a big configuration change and if for some reason you need to go around after breakout back into the soup it wouldn’t be my preference.  With gear down and 1/2 flaps you are set for take off performance and maximum rate of climb.  

He has hydraulic flaps so taking the full flaps off takes a bit and you are going to lose a lot of lift. Then to get into a take off configuration you are putting 2 pumps back on all while trying to swing manual gear.  

Edited by M20F
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given that a Mooney is a category A aircraft with a nominal approach speed of 90 kt, in an older M20C with top of white arc at 87 kt, we can't put any flaps in until flying with runway in sight.  Solves the transition problem with flaps when going around.   Just need to get those Johnson Armstrong actuated gear up- which don't like to come up at >90 kt.

Edited by Fred₂O
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, M20F said:

I wouldn’t recommend full flaps in IMC, if you really need them on breakout, maybe.  Even then dumping more flaps at 200 AGL is a big configuration change and if for some reason you need to go around after breakout back into the soup it wouldn’t be my preference.  With gear down and 1/2 flaps you are set for take off performance and maximum rate of climb.  

He has hydraulic flaps so taking the full flaps off takes a bit and you are going to lose a lot of lift. Then to get into a take off configuration you are putting 2 pumps back on all while trying to swing manual gear.  

Agree - poorly stated - i.e. would never suggest doing dumping in flaps in IMC.  Not a 200ft minimums kinda guy, but dumping in full flaps at 500 works well, once committed to land.  My numbers are for no flaps with gear down past FAF, would need to modify if flying it with half flaps - I've never tried.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, DXB said:

Not a 200ft minimums kinda guy

You really need to be if you are going to fly IMC and don’t have a chute.  While I hear what you are saying about personal minimums, the weather changes and you need to be able to play all the way to the limit (and 200’ becomes 100’ if you see what I will say is runway environment but realize the FAR’s list specific items).  

Not encouraging anyone to push themselves but the reality is you can’t control the weather, be a Boy Scout. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Janat83,

The link I shared has the following info:    "Here is the settings I came up with and use for approaches in my 77 M20C.   The beauty of this is how simple it is to use.  I am 2400 RPM, 18" Clean Approach Level at 100mph (about 90kts).  As soon as I intercept the Glide Slope - I do not touch RPM or MP,  I simply Drop the Gear,  Drop Flaps to TkOFf, and Pull Carb Heat.   Wait a few sec and I have a nice 500 FPM decent.  "    I only use the top 2-3 LINEs in the matrix below for approaches, and of course the Missed Approach config on go around.  I have 120MPH settings there as well but have not yet moved up to flying the approaches faster. 

Hope this helps

sf

image.png.dea2061765fdf39a2c41d885de39a1c4.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, ijs12fly said:

Janat83,

The link I shared has the following info:    "Here is the settings I came up with and use for approaches in my 77 M20C.   The beauty of this is how simple it is to use.  I am 2400 RPM, 18" Clean Approach Level at 100mph (about 90kts).  As soon as I intercept the Glide Slope - I do not touch RPM or MP,  I simply Drop the Gear,  Drop Flaps to TkOFf, and Pull Carb Heat.   Wait a few sec and I have a nice 500 FPM decent.  "    I only use the top 2-3 LINEs in the matrix below for approaches, and of course the Missed Approach config on go around.  I have 120MPH settings there as well but have not yet moved up to flying the approaches faster. 

Hope this helps

sf

image.png.dea2061765fdf39a2c41d885de39a1c4.png

Wow, this is really useful, that's exactly what I was looking for, much appreciated. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, M20F said:

You really need to be if you are going to fly IMC and don’t have a chute.  While I hear what you are saying about personal minimums, the weather changes and you need to be able to play all the way to the limit (and 200’ becomes 100’ if you see what I will say is runway environment but realize the FAR’s list specific items).  

Not encouraging anyone to push themselves but the reality is you can’t control the weather, be a Boy Scout. 

You really don't need be and personal minimum should be adhered to ALWAYS, not a lax "sometimes" sort of way. If you're flying in IMC you should already have an alternate. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.