New Windshield For Mooney

[RonM]

The front windshield (wind-screen) of my Mooney Missile needs replacement. What would be the approximate cost of the new windshield (wind-screen) and how much would it cost to install - approximately? Any comments appreciated.  

[Yetti]

http://www.glapinc.com/Mooney/m20K.htm

[jetdriven]

I have the glap windshield in my plane. I highly recommend the solar grey tint. No trimming required. I’d guess 4-8hr of labor for install so long as you use the 3/16” stock thickness. 

[BaldEagle]

I’m about to do the same thing on my J.  I was quoted 16 hours labor by LASAR.  A local reputable shop that has done this before (but not a MSC) says probably north of 20 hrs.  $3 to $4k including windshield; it’s a big job and requires IA sign off.

[jetdriven]

??  Why does a windshield require an IA sign off? Is it a major alteration? 
 

[FlyboyKC]

Is this the Lasar STC or a regular windscreen?

[PT20J]

The 

13 minutes ago, BaldEagle said:

I’m about to do the same thing on my J.  I was quoted 16 hours labor by LASAR.  A local reputable shop that has done this before (but not a MSC) says probably north of 20 hrs.  $3 to $4k including windshield; it’s a big job and requires IA sign off.

That doesn’t sound right. If you get a PMA windshield installed it doesn’t need a 337. Only if you were installing LASAR’s STC’d 201 windshield in an older model Mooney would you need a IA to fill out a 337. 

[RLCarter]

59 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The 

That doesn’t sound right. If you get a PMA windshield installed it doesn’t need a 337. Only if you were installing LASAR’s STC’d 201 windshield in an older model Mooney would you need a IA to fill out a 337. 

if the the thicker windscreen is used it would need the IA and 337

[jetdriven]

3 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

if the the thicker windscreen is used it would need the IA and 337

Why, is it a major alteration? Whats the definition of that?

here's some info:

14 CFR Part 1.1

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications -

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Minor alteration means an alteration other than a major alteration.

from: https://www.aviationpros.com/education-training/article/10385792/major-vs-minor

Edited August 1, 2019 by jetdriven

[takair]

Seems like an argument could be made that the thicker windshield is a minor alteration.  I suspect most are installed as a log book entry.

[RLCarter]

Not sure, I know of 3 planes (cessna, piper and a mooney) thicker winsdscreens installed and all had to be signed off by an IA, none were installed by the same A&P. The cessna was installed by the IA

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by RLCarter

[jetdriven]

Not sure.  Not  a great position to take with aircraft records.

All had to be signed off by the IA, or were demanded to be signed off by the IA?  Read the definition and LMK.  Also, if something is really a minor alteration and an IA demands to use a 337, thus declaring it a major alteration, isnt that falsifying aircraft records? You're declaring something a major alteration when its minor.

Edited August 1, 2019 by jetdriven

[carusoam]

So... Ron has a Missile... a 201 with an IO550 hiding under a K’s cowl...

Replacing with an exact copy of what is there already... would be the lowest cost route...

Replacing with a thicker version may be preferred...

Going thicker... that may require trimming the windshield to be thinner in the area of installation...

Depending on your installer, there is a piece of aluminum trim that may not survive the un-install...

Side windows can be owner installed...

Windshields are much more serious.

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

alterations of weight of 2 lbs or more requires a new W&B. switching from an OEM to Thick windshield is a 3 to 4 # delta. that might be why it needed the IA signoff.

[jetdriven]

4 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

alterations of weight of 2 lbs or more requires a new W&B. switching from an OEM to Thick windshield is a 3 to 4 # delta. that might be why it needed the IA signoff.

where is this 2LB or more rule published?

do you have weight data that a 1/4" windshield weighs 3-4LB more than a 3/16"? I have personally installed a 1/4" windshield, its like 2LB. How many have you installed?

and even if the windshield weighed, say 9LB more than a stock windshield, what part of that makes it a FAR 1 major alteration?  the definition is clear. Nothing is mentioned about what you said..

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by jetdriven

[neilpilot]

Also can’t an A&P issue an altered W&B?  It doesn’t require an IA.

[takair]

This may be a classic FSDO to FSDO or IA to IA difference in interpretation of major/minor.  I’ve even seen the interpretations change over time or with change of personnel. If a 337 is involved for a simple change in thickness, then it is likely a field approval with FSDO blessing, but I know others would consider it a minor...especially if it is FAA-PMA for that airframe.

[PT20J]

15 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

alterations of weight of 2 lbs or more requires a new W&B. switching from an OEM to Thick windshield is a 3 to 4 # delta. that might be why it needed the IA signoff.

No

[EricJ]

If the thicker windshield has an STC associated with it then it will require a 337 and an IA signoff.    Why it would need that is a bit of a question, but the same is true for sun visors.

 

[PT20J]

15 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Also can’t an A&P issue an altered W&B?  It doesn’t require an IA.

Yes

[jetdriven]

Just now, EricJ said:

If the thicker windshield has an STC associated with it then it will require a 337 and an IA signoff.    Why it would need that is a bit of a question, but the same is true for sun visors.

 

The gLAP windshield is PMA, not STC. Again, what makes a 2lb weight Difference, or an stc make something a major alteration ?

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The gLAP windshield is PMA, not STC. Again, what makes a 2lb weight Difference, or an stc make something a major alteration ?

IMHO it shouldn't be.

[PT20J]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

If the thicker windshield has an STC associated with it then it will require a 337 and an IA signoff.    Why it would need that is a bit of a question, but the same is true for sun visors.

 

The issue is that the part must have some sort or approval to be installed on a type certificated  aircraft. It can be owner produced, it can be TSO’d, it can be PMA’d, it can be a standard part made to recognized industry standards, it can be made by the airplane manufacturer and covered by the TC, it can be a part listed on the TC, or it can be STC’d. 337 is required for a STC. 

So if the windshield is a PMA part it should be a minor alteration and if your mechanic wants to fill out a 337 I’d argue the point or find another mechanic. On the other hand, it’s just a piece of paper. But it does become part of the FAA permanent records for the aircraft. 

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[EricJ]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The gLAP windshield is PMA, not STC. Again, what makes a 2lb weight Difference, or an stc make something a major alteration ?

Actually, to address a fine point, an STC by definition requires a 337 because it is supplemental to the original Type Certificate and therefore changes the definition of "airworthy" for that aircraft.    "Airworthy" means that it meets its original type design or properly altered condition, with "proper" alteration being done according to approved data, which is documented on a 337.   The STC is the "approved data" for that case.

A 2lb weight difference would not fall under the definition of a major alteration unless it somehow affected the center of gravity limits.

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Actually, to address a fine point, an STC by definition requires a 337 because it is supplemental to the original Type Certificate and therefore changes the definition of "airworthy" for that aircraft.    "Airworthy" means that it meets its original type design or properly altered condition, with "proper" alteration being done according to approved data, which is documented on a 337.   The STC is the "approved data" for that case.

A 2lb weight difference would not fall under the definition of a major alteration unless it somehow affected the center of gravity limits.

Thats my understanding.

The problem is that FAA is not consistent between regions. Apparently, they made Rosen get STCs for sun visors making them by definition a major alteration. Great Lakes Aero, located in a different region, was able to get PMA approval for thicker windows. (See the Q&A section on GLAP’s website). So, installing a sun visor requires a 337, but putting in thicker glass does not.

Trying to understand FAA maintenance and certification logic is worse than trying to understand part 91 without copies of all the legal interpretations handy 

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