hypertech Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 2 hours ago, hmasing said: That's exactly the issue. I would like to go after the A&P who signed off on this and at the very least have them cover the costs to bring the engine up to overhaul standards. Who did the overhaul? Did this mechanic do it? Or was the engine sent out? If it was a shade tree overhaul, that perhaps should have been priced out already. If the engine was sent out, this guy wouldn't have had anything to do with the internals and you could have a new guy go over the installation and make sure its right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, hypertech said: Who did the overhaul? Did this mechanic do it? Or was the engine sent out? If it was a shade tree overhaul, that perhaps should have been priced out already. If the engine was sent out, this guy wouldn't have had anything to do with the internals and you could have a new guy go over the installation and make sure its right. The only log entry is that the engine was overhauled by the mechanic and zero-timed when it was moved over from another Mooney. The prior owner advertised it as a 220 hour SMOH engine. The owner and mechanic are friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 I mean, not to be the wet noodle here, but who checked the log books (it should have been you and the pre buy guy). An overhaul signed off by the local mechanic is pretty easy to catch and price into the deal before the plane becomes your problem. I'd think about a bore scope at a different shop than the one that did the pre-buy. Consider the engine timed out and be happy with whatever hours you can get out of it. The hose is stupid, but its easy enough to change out the hose to the right one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, hypertech said: I mean, not to be the wet noodle here, but who checked the log books (it should have been you and the pre buy guy). An overhaul signed off by the local mechanic is pretty easy to catch and price into the deal before the plane becomes your problem. I'd think about a bore scope at a different shop than the one that did the pre-buy. Consider the engine timed out and be happy with whatever hours you can get out of it. The hose is stupid, but its easy enough to change out the hose to the right one. The pre-buy was remote (the aircraft was in Florida, I am in Michigan). I will be having a frank conversation with him as well. We will see how the engine looks after we make it legal. Compressions were all 79 at the start of annual a couple weeks ago, and I just did an accessory housing teardown and inspection, as well as a borescope. So I am optimistic that the engine will give me lots of time, it's the stuff on the engine that has been hacked to fail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Also, is this plane N3555N? Was it yours when it ran off the end of the runway and had a prop strike in May? Either way, that event may demand a tear down and inspection either at the sellers expense or your insurance companies expense. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/225165 Given that on top of the hose issue, you've also got mixture cables coming off, I might ground the plane till a credible mechanic like an MSC goes over the whole thing and gives it a fresh annual and bill of health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 So first off. You are probably just scratching the surface. You will continue to find stuff. There are different versions of airworthy. I found that mine is higher than some certified mechanics. I would ask for your money back on the prebuy assuming you sent a list of what you wanted checked and he checked those things. I would create a list of things to bring up to snuff. Probably a 1000-2000 or so and send it to the Seller and ask for payment. Yep it is was dangerous. Realize getting these 50 year old machines back up to snuff is a process. But you don't want the FSDO to tag your plane and pull the engine apart to check oil pump gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Post pictures. It is kind of a sport around here to point out things that are wrong. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, hmasing said: The only log entry is that the engine was overhauled by the mechanic and zero-timed when it was moved over from another Mooney. The prior owner advertised it as a 220 hour SMOH engine. The owner and mechanic are friends. Not sure what you mean by “zero timed.” Only Lycoming can rebuild an engine and declare it zero time with a new logbook. (They do this because they take all the cores to pieces, recondition the good parts, throw the parts into inventory and rebuild engines from this inventory. There is no way to know what time is on all the parts that make up a factory rebuilt engine). Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, PT20J said: Not sure what you mean by “zero timed.” Only Lycoming can rebuild an engine and declare it zero time with a new logbook. (They do this because they take all the cores to pieces, recondition the good parts, throw the parts into inventory and rebuild engines from this inventory. There is no way to know what time is on all the parts that make up a factory rebuilt engine). Skip Yes, to be pedantic, you are correct. 220 SMOH. Not since new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, hypertech said: Also, is this plane N3555N? Was it yours when it ran off the end of the runway and had a prop strike in May? Either way, that event may demand a tear down and inspection either at the sellers expense or your insurance companies expense. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/225165 Given that on top of the hose issue, you've also got mixture cables coming off, I might ground the plane till a credible mechanic like an MSC goes over the whole thing and gives it a fresh annual and bill of health. Yes, that's me, and I combined the tear-down with an annual, and that's why we're finding these things. We're going over everything with a fine-toothed comb, and fixing the stuff that isn't right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 19 minutes ago, jetdriven said: Wow, that’s a 50 PSI hose on a 350 PSI governor line. The aircraft Hoses are pressure tested to 3000 PSI. Byron, from the picture, I think that hose was used for a fuel line, not the prop governor. The proper NAPA prop governor lines would be imprinted NOT FOR USE ON PROPELLER GOVERNOR SYSTEMS. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Where are you located in MI? I think the only official MSC left is at GRR. I had my prebuy at Lapeer Aviation in Lapeer MI. The A&P IA / Mooney-Expert mechanic Ben Kooi left and is now with Midwest Sky Sports Aviation in Caro MI now. https://www.midwestskysports.comHe seems to know Mooney’s very well. In the UP, Kubick Aviation can wrench on them too. https://www.midwestskysports.comSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, PT20J said: Byron, from the picture, I think that hose was used for a fuel line, not the prop governor. The proper NAPA prop governor lines would be imprinted NOT FOR USE ON PROPELLER GOVERNOR SYSTEMS. Yes, fuel line. It's the only photo I have. My IA informed me that the flex line on the prop governor was also not rated for the application, and was not aviation rated either (I believe). I don't have a picture of that hose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 28 minutes ago, hmasing said: This is the only photo I have on my phone, but this is not an aeronautical rated hose. It is also not for fuel injection systems, JUST like it says on the hose - but is in the plane with an IO-360. SAE 30R7 Fuel Line Hose is Recommended for low pressure/high temperature fuel for passenger car, light truck and small engine applications. Not intended for fuel injection systems. 30R7 is not Coast Guard approved for marine applications. Use with Fuel Line Hose Barbs So yup, I'm going with "NAPA auto parts bullshit". It's really hard to tell from that picture but are sure that is attached to the prop governor? It doesn't look like it's located anywhere near the governor. It looks like it is the breather line routed along the LH side of the engine. Not saying it's right even for that application but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, JimB said: It's really hard to tell from that picture but are sure that is attached to the prop governor? It doesn't look like it's located anywhere near the governor. It looks like it is the breather line routed along the LH side of the engine. Not saying it's right even for that application but... As stated, that's the not the prop governor hose, but it's also not rated for the fuel pressures in the IO-360, and not for aero use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 28 minutes ago, hmasing said: This is the only photo I have on my phone, but this is not an aeronautical rated hose. It is also not for fuel injection systems, JUST like it says on the hose - but is in the plane with an IO-360. SAE 30R7 Fuel Line Hose is Recommended for low pressure/high temperature fuel for passenger car, light truck and small engine applications. Not intended for fuel injection systems. 30R7 is not Coast Guard approved for marine applications. Use with Fuel Line Hose Barbs So yup, I'm going with "NAPA auto parts bullshit". So did he reroute your governor around the left side of the engine? I'm not used to seeing the starter solenoid and the governor line in the same area. The up shot is that it appears the other hose in the picture is MIL6000 so that piece should be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, hmasing said: Yes, that's me, and I combined the tear-down with an annual, and that's why we're finding these things. We're going over everything with a fine-toothed comb, and fixing the stuff that isn't right. Doesn't the engine have to come off to do that? Not as familiar with the Lycoming but on the Continental it does. In which case, nothing goes back on that is sketchy and you should be good to go when you are done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) That mixture cable connector came loose on my airplane in flight as well. Luckily it was set for lean cruise and since the gami spread was so good, it continued to run and make good power. We didn’t really realize it until after we landed. The design of that connector has a plug that threads into the end of it and traps the ball. What happens is the plug vibrates and it saws the cotter pin in two, then the plug backs out then the thing falls off like that. I installed that plug myself personally about 80 hours or 100 hours before that. So if you have this type of connector on your mixture lever arm I would replace it immediately. It is a very hazardous piece Edited July 31, 2019 by jetdriven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, hmasing said: Yes, to be pedantic, you are correct. 220 SMOH. Not since new. It's not being pedantic. It's an important distinction that many people do not understand. Edited July 31, 2019 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, hypertech said: Doesn't the engine have to come off to do that? Not as familiar with the Lycoming but on the Continental it does. In which case, nothing goes back on that is sketchy and you should be good to go when you are done. Yes, engine was completely off and broken down, and I had every part possible inspected. I've been very hands-on with this annual so I can understand my bird better. I'm also doing any work I can legally (and when I have evenings/weekends/lunches to do it). Even had the engine mount stripped and repainted. And since I was down for so long, I modded the side windows to a single pane, and gave been redoing the interior as well. and switched to LED's all around... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Did you inspect the crankshaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted July 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, jetdriven said: Did you inspect the crankshaft Yes, that's part of the AD, and replaced the bolt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Finished product looks great. It sucks that it happened and that this stuff was like that from the last mechanic, but it seems like you've gone over every bolt because of this and should be good to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 I mean did you remove the crankshaft and have it checked for cracks. Inspecting the bolts and the lock plate is the bare minimum. Insurance companies will usually always pay for a complete tear down and inspection. It’s always a good idea with a prop strike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, hmasing said: Yes, engine was completely off and broken down, and I had every part possible inspected. Even had the engine mount stripped and repainted. And since I was down for so long, I modded the side windows to a single pane, and gave been redoing the interior as well. and switched to LED's all around... That's a very nice looking bird. Given the engine was coming off anyway, you have an easy opportunity to make it right for minimal expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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