Hold as Published

[M20F]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

 However, there was a good reason for the lack of query.  I didn't want to embarrass either the Controller or myself. 

I don’t find potential embarrassment a good reason to not query a controller for clarification. 

[DXB]

29 minutes ago, M20F said:

I don’t find potential embarrassment a good reason to not query a controller for clarification. 

Agreed...though I'm glad to hear someone as experienced as Mr. Kaye also has this embarrassed feeling when confused by a controller instruction - not just relative newbs like me.  Both speaking up with ATC when it helps safe operation and keeping ones mouth shut at all times when it won't are very contrary to human nature in certain scenarios.  I had a little difficulty with the latter on the way to KOSH last week - a Madison approach controller on flight following gave me a minimum altitude restriction, then several miles later deleted it and said "vfr altitude your discretion." A few miles after that, I started a descent and announced it at the same time. The controller replied by berating me on frequency for violating his altitude restriction for about 30 sec - guess he was a tad confused and having a bad day.  Just before I hit the PTT to respond, my pilot friend in the right seat who knows my temper told me to zip it. He did a favor to everyone on frequency.  Let them pull the tape if they want clarification.  Didn't even bother with a NASA report for that one. 

[midlifeflyer]

20 hours ago, kortopates said:

We actually get that all the time in my area. There is only 1 published hold on the low enroute airspace in the San Diego area, so controllers will regularly give a published hold over Oceanside VOR, which is unique to the OCN VOR-A approach, even for aircraft destined for other nearby airports. I was thinking the same thing but don't know how commonly that is done.

 

Funny. I came across a YouTube video  i the past few days (can't recall which one) in which the controller gave an instruction to hold at a fix "as published on the [name] approach." Nice controller!

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, donkaye said:

 However, there was a good lousy reason for the lack of query.  I didn't want to embarrass either the Controller or myself.  

FIFY.

[kortopates]

No one should hesitate to ask a controller for clarification whenever receiving an instruction they didn't understand. I do it frequently and there is nothing to be embarrassed about. I live under the busiest TRACON in the country (and world for that matter) and frequently engage an active controller, responsible for SOCAL pilot outreach,  to speak to our local pilots as well as run field trips for my students at the TRACON. In fact, he is speaking to our pilot group tomorrow night, Thursday 8/1 at Solar Turbines SD. (everyone in the SOCAL area is invited, see the SPANS announcement). Rob, our controller, constantly makes the point that they would much prefer all pilots get VFR flight following if not IFR, versus not speaking with them, and to never hesitate questioning an instruction they do not understand. After all, the worst thing a pilot can do is to accept a clearance they do not understand which will result in flying something contrary to what the controller was expecting. If a loss of separation ensues, the pilot will be deviated. But this is entirely avoidable by querying the controller. Sure it can get difficult at times if the frequency is saturated and both controller and pilots get stressed, not unlike the example @DXB   relayed above. But whenever that happens, its a really good idea to call them up after the event and discuss it with them. Frankly, I don't do that enough despite taking a few notes in the cockpit to follow up with, but whenever I do, I have always gotten a warm reception with the attitude that we all want to be as professional as we can be. When communications break down, thankfully which is rare, its also helpful for us and the controllers to call them once on ground rather than arguing about it over a congested frequency. Unfortunately, we probably all hear that a bit too often too.

Edited July 31, 2019 by kortopates

[thinwing]

15 hours ago, donkaye said:

 I finally have time to get back to this posting.  Flew KRAP to KOGD today.  Home tomorrow.  There is no doubt the Controller failed to give a proper holding clearance and I volunteered to hold on the inbound radial to the VOR I was on, which he said was unsatisfactory.  When he said "Hold as Published"  I quickly pulled up the enroute chart on Jepp FD and found no holds on any airway.  I did find holds on some approach charts, but didn't query the Controller, since no approach was given or stated to expect in the ASOS.  However, there was a good reason for the lack of query.  I didn't want to embarrass either the Controller or myself.  I took the prudent way out for the weather this day and said, "Since there are no holds on any of the airways, I cancel IFR". He didn't comment on that "subtle" remark.   Had it been IMC, he and I would have gone around, and I would have pinned him down to what he specifically wanted.  That would have been the prudent (actually the only) thing to do in IMC conditions.  Certainly I took the "easy" way out.  It didn't really address the issue for the future, but it was the best decision given the circumstance, in my opinion.

I’m surprised Ellsworth approach didn’t issue instructions to expect visual approach to that same runway since you were obviously in Vmc conditions.I flew the same route on Saturday and found the military controllers a little different.After his refusal to clarify which hold ,I think I would have done the same thing.Spearfish would have been my choice due to awesome fbo,good runway with approach,fun area if overnighting

[mike_elliott]

17 hours ago, 81X said:

I would have first said, "Oh, KRAP, a hold" and then asked what kind of KRAPpy instructions those were when all one wanted to do was make a not so KRAPpy landing at KRAP.  

and Don could have added "I no longer have a K(r)AP 150 AP to fly the KRAPpy hold for me. My new AP has a KRAPpy porpoise that wont hold that altitude for such a KRAPpy clearance" 
"Please cancel IFR"

 

[L. Trotter]

I am based in Rapid City (KRAP).  Although it may not help, perhaps I can shed a little light.

Ellsworth is a training place for controllers.  Generally speaking, they are well supervised.  However, you can get some young controllers who are still learning their trade.  It is not unusual to receive some interesting instructions.  On occasion, I have called them on a land line in efforts to help them help us more efficiently.  They are happy to provide you a phone number should you ask.  Additionally, some of the controllers in the Rapid City tower have worked at Ellsworth and are well acquainted with their system and can help as well.

As far as the instructions "hold as published" while flying a direct airport to Airport flight plan, begs further clarification.  There are 5 separate published holding patterns in the Rapid City area ( HELTA, EWEBU, COTTY, MUDDY and RAP).  I can almost guarantee you they were referring to RAP because this is where they typically take us (as a routine) for practice holding and missed approaches. The HELTA fix, associated with the published ILS approach is a relatively new fix.  Additionally, the seasoned controllers would have given you a visual approach in VMC if they had radar coverage.  Unfortunately, the local radar coverage has been inconsistent while the system is being overhaul.  Hence, they're need for a holding until previous IFR traffic has landed.

This experience would have been a great teaching point for a young controller.  In my opinion, you should have been provided a new clearance direct to a holding fix of their choice with appropriate holding instructions to include expected time of release.

 

[donkaye]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:27 AM, M20F said:

I don’t find potential embarrassment a good reason to not query a controller for clarification. 

You apparently didn't get the full meaning of my last posting.  If the solution was going to be "Cancel IFR" why get into it with the Controller.  I wasn't sure if I was missing something, or the Controller was in error.  I figured I would spend some time on the ground sorting it out, if it was my error.  If it was his error (it was) why embarrass him?  As I mentioned, if it was IMC that would have been an entirely different story.  I'm not intimidated by any Controller (not should anyone) and certainly would have gotten clarification in that situation.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I was being given vectors for an ILS into my home airport (KIMT, Runway 1) when coming from the northwest.  I had been given two headings and was approaching the final approach course when the controller said "cleared for the approach" (I was in IMC) while still assigned 60 degrees off the inbound course.  I queried him once whether he was going to give me another heading before clearing me for the approach.  He sounded confused.  I came back with I would like a heading of 040 before intercepting.  He came back with "I'm sorry, you are correct, fly heading of 040 until established, cleared for the ILS runway 1, advise established".  I wasn't correcting him, just wanted a workable intercept heading for the approach (was flying the prop-jet, so speed is a consideration as well for a tight turn).  He never indicated he felt confronted.

I think I've seen more "new" controllers the last several years that are not "quite" up to speed.  I'm never confrontational, and actually think Don did a fairly rational action.  I would have done the same myself.  Why fly a hold in VMC when cancelling gets you to the airport easier and quicker.  I often cancel when being given the scenic routing to my airport waiting another IFR arrival in VMC conditions.  I can work out the spacing VFR a lot more efficiently than they will holding IFR separation standards.

Tom

[HXG]

I’ve flown into KRAP a few times and have found the controllers helpful. It’s not very busy. I would have asked for clarification on which published hold the controller was referring to, but if the controller came back with an attitude and little interest in clarifying, I would have done what Don did and cancel IFR.  

A friendly call to the controller on the ground innocently asking for clarification as a non local pilot could help point out his error and possibly spare a future pilot from a similar situation. 

[HXG]

As a teaching point, Don’s scenario reminds me to always be ready for an unexpected hold as I move from en route flight to arrival and approach. Are their printed published holds along my route on the low ifr route charts or on my planned approach? Am I ready to copy and implement unexpected hold instructions? etc. Holds for weather, radar outages, and other IFR traffic are not as rare as we may think. 

[midlifeflyer]

17 hours ago, kortopates said:

No one should hesitate to ask a controller for clarification whenever receiving an instruction they didn't understand. 

This is so important, the FAA even made it a regulatory requirement in FAR 91.123(a).

[bradp]

Here’s another twist - holding pattern entry.  Advisory or regulatory ... discuss away.  

[jaylw314]

9 minutes ago, bradp said:

Here’s another twist - holding pattern entry.  Advisory or regulatory ... discuss away.  

?  That one's pretty clearly advisory to help stay in the protected area?

[bradp]

That was the one time I ever got a “call this number” from ATC.  I did a missed (practice in actual) off of LYH and over to vorA brookneal.  Hold was left turns and I was right on the line between a parallel (turn right) and a direct (turn left) entry.  Stayed in the protected area etc.  

Except that the controller assumed I must be making a parallel entry and I made a direct or the other way around.  So he launches a jet without an altitude buffer using anticipated separation and had a deal (loss of separation).  He asked me to call.  Very cordially we talked about regulatory vs advisory and better communication by clarification of plans / intentions.  Everyone learned something that day.  That a few years before we got all fancy and the magenta line now just tells me what to do :-).  Oooh.  Magenta.