Yetti

AoA comments from Chuck

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At the 1 minute mark.   Cracks me up every time

 

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obviously the guy is a legend... but I dont agree with his (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment on AoA.

There is no way any person can by feel or view of other instruments know what their AoA is with any precision. too many factors play into it.

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"AOA, what a stupid instrument. If you don't know what your angle of attack is, you shouldn't be flying."

Bahahaha! Love it!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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14 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

obviously the guy is a legend... but I dont agree with his (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment on AoA.

There is no way any person can by feel or view of other instruments know what their AoA is with any precision. too many factors play into it.

Oh, I wouldn't bet against Chuck on either of those comments:D

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11 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

obviously the guy is a legend... but I dont agree with his (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment on AoA.

There is no way any person can by feel or view of other instruments know what their AoA is with any precision. too many factors play into it.

Disagree.   fly with someone that can feel the plane ie seat of the pants flying or a good glider pilot.   I grew up racing sail boats where you learn to feel the lifts and headers and steer to take advantage of them.  It translates well to a sailplane.    If I am uncoordinated in turn I can feel it, and correct it without looking at the instruments.   The fmr navy commander I have flown with can absolutely feel the plane.  He is a United pilot.   I asked him if he could feel a big jet he said yes.  

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This comment has been shown here on other threads regarding AoA, back when I was being “burned as a witch” for explaining why using AoA is superior to airspeed for most phases of flight.

Context is everything... it seems to me that many quotes and sound bytes on the internet lack just that- context.

here is some context on this clip- Yeager, the curmudgeon that he is, is most likely referring to  trying to look at that AoA gauge during a dogfight.  In his day (and also in my younger years In the 15) they did not have AoA gauges in a location, or to the accuracy needed, to properly fly at the edge of the envelope (extracting maximum turning performance without departing).  As a result, feel cues were used to develop a sense of how close the wings were to stall.  These typically were a compounding of buffet and sound (airflow separation off the canopy.. we called it “the eagles roar.”)

in modern fighters that have digital flight control systems, we most certainly do use our AoA.  It’s critical to all phases of flight, especially dogfighting (and landing).

as for feel versus AoA (or airspeed)... the most accurate, consistent results across all conditions should be achieved by using an AoA gauge.  But every once in a blue blue moon...there’s probably someone out there that can do it on instinct to similar outcomes consistently, without any gauges at all.  

Personally, while I’m certain I can land a plane without any gauges at all (I’ve done it in a high performance jet before... it’s not as easy as it sounds)... I have no doubt in my mind that my approach would be far slower/better and use much less runway with some sort of gauge other than just “feel.”

Edited by M016576
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One story from my flight instructor:   WWII bomber Engineer.   Test pilot for Navion in Galveston.   One time they were finding the rear loading limit of the Navion and went a little too far.    He was able to nurse the plane back by good feel and no sharp turns.  Said he made the smallest angle most coordinated 180 turn to get back.   The test flight was going out over the Gulf.

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16 minutes ago, Yetti said:

One story from my flight instructor:   WWII bomber Engineer.   Test pilot for Navion in Galveston.   One time they were finding the rear loading limit of the Navion and went a little too far.    He was able to nurse the plane back by good feel and no sharp turns.  Said he made the smallest angle most coordinated 180 turn to get back.   The test flight was going out over the Gulf.

He wasn’t using feel alone- still had an airspeed indicator... just a limited idea where the stall would occur on it.

Edited by M016576

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1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Disagree.   fly with someone that can feel the plane ie seat of the pants flying or a good glider pilot.   I grew up racing sail boats where you learn to feel the lifts and headers and steer to take advantage of them.  It translates well to a sailplane.    If I am uncoordinated in turn I can feel it, and correct it without looking at the instruments.   The fmr navy commander I have flown with can absolutely feel the plane.  He is a United pilot.   I asked him if he could feel a big jet he said yes.  

I fly gliders ( own my own) and fly a 100,000 lb swept wing jet professionally.  I also taught heavy jets for 4 years. I also happen to have been involved in sailboat racing going back to my youth (lasers and 420's on lakes and larger boats on the ocean for DAYS on end)

Does Chuck also think stick shakers are stupid?   Why do you think the FAA requires them?  Think about that one for a sec and get back to me.

Edited by Austintatious
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Does Chuck also think stick shakers are stupid?   Why do you think the FAA requires them?  Think about that one for a sec and get back to me.

Because not all pilots are good pilots?
AirFrance 447, Colgan 3407, and BirgenAir 301;come to mind.
All perfectly good airplanes where stalled and then the pilots continue to pull back preventing the airplane from recovering from a simple stall.


Tom
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2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:


Because not all pilots are good pilots?
AirFrance 447, Colgan 3407, and BirgenAir 301;come to mind.
All perfectly good airplanes where stalled and then the pilots continue to pull back preventing the airplane from recovering from a simple stall.


Tom

No, it is because a lot of jet aircraft have airfoils that give no prior warning to a full stall.

What exactly is Chuck suggesting with that comment?  That none of us have any business flying if we cannot while under the mental load of flying, instantly calculate the AOA using airspeed, weight, airfoil characteristics, density altitude, pitch angle, climb/descent rate, flap settings and load factor?  And what does he think we should be calculating that in?  degrees of AOA or percentage of available lift?

 

I guess if he believes that I for one am glad he isnt making the rules.   There isnt a one of you on this board who could at ANY moment during ANY portion of flight announce what the AOA is (either in degrees OR % of lift) with any accuracy ( you would be guessing) unless you had been flying whatever airplane you are in WITH an AOA guage prior to the attempt, so that you would have any clue as to what it is during the particular regime.

In fact, I would venture to guess that not a person here could even sit at their desk with pen and paper and Tell me what the AOA is on their mooney at Max gross weight in a 30 degree bank 5000'@  150KIAS @ standard temperature day with 0 flaps and full forward CG.   Want to take that challenge?

 

Can we fly without AOA indications?  sure

Can we have an estimate of where we sit with our current AOA?  sure in terms of " low/ med/ High/ approaching stall.

Can we come anywhere close to the accuracy provided by an AOA Guage?  Not likely/feasible without having seen actual AOA numbers for the situation.

Edited by Austintatious

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If I was seeing 150kias at 5000 ft in a 30 degree bank I know my AOA would be very low perhaps even into the negative because I would have to be descending to be that fast in a C :P

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I wonder what Chuck thinks about the Rocket. “...that's stupid!! you can’t take on fuel but you gotta fly around carrying lead weights!!...” :D

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It's kind of how a number of professional race car drivers will drive cars that have no speedometer.  They know their entry speed into a corner within a couple mph, even without one, because they are inordinately talented and immensely skilled.  I'm neither.

While I'm not that precise on speed, I can drive well enough without looking at a speedometer.  On the other hand, it does help me avoid speeding tickets.

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5 hours ago, M016576 said:

...

as for feel versus AoA (or airspeed)... the most accurate, consistent results across all conditions should be achieved by using an AoA gauge.  But every once in a blue blue moon...there’s probably someone out there that can do it on instinct to similar outcomes consistently, without any gauges at all.  

 

 

I was going to ask your opinion on this.

So my take on what Chuck Yeager must have been saying - first I think we should all take for granted that he is likely as good as they get.  So he just be one of those few who an AoA is useless since he all but knows his AoA by feel (seat of pants).  And he clearly feels that's better.  But then is he asserting that having an AoA is a crutch that prevents a pilot from finding the greater level of skill he enjoys?

But then perhaps AoA is the common man's inner Jaeger.  Like a walking stick for the blind.  Sort of like giving kids calculators in K-6 grade and then wondering why they can't do arithmetic in their head.  But, I will never be as good as Chuck.  Not close.  No matter what I do.  But I have my AoA and it helps me manipulate my airplane with greater accuracy than I would ever achieve without it.  So a greater population of people can fly more accurately and safely than perhaps otherwise.  But I give it to him - perhaps for some its a crutch that prevents some who might otherwise be as good as him from getting that good by instead learning over reliance.  Just my interpretation of what he might have meant, but of course, I can't ask him to confirm.

 

Edited by aviatoreb

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

It's kind of how a number of professional race car drivers will drive cars that have no speedometer.  They know their entry speed into a corner within a couple mph, even without one, because they are inordinately talented and immensely skilled.  I'm neither.

While I'm not that precise on speed, I can drive well enough without looking at a speedometer.  On the other hand, it does help me avoid speeding tickets.

Have you seen the steering wheel of an F1 car?  They have LED lights that show engine RPM... by knowing what gear and how many RPM to enter the turn at is about the same as using a speedometer.

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I guess God has been flying as copilot.  I have never used an instrument for AOA and am still alive and kicking.  I wouldn’t make a comment as strong as Chucks, but I understand what he’s saying.  I don’t know that I would be saying one shouldn’t fly if they need one, but if someone has to have one for basic flying, I’m a bit suspicious of their stick and rudder skills.  That’s not to say that the instrument has no purpose.

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Here is an interesting story.....   One or two of the Apollo Astronauts drove race boats for John Mecom.  There was a complaint from them about all the gauges on the boat and what do they mean.   So the crew (of which I my dad was apart of)  taped over all the gauges.   The Astronauts began complaining "how are we going to drive this boat when we can't see the gauges"

 

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The other one that was interesting was Husky pilot while he was learning to fly.   You could tell he was a programmer.    He kept trying to take all the inputs of the instruments and and then program the landing.   Which works of course if the conditions are the same each day.   Same with programing you have to be able to define the repetition event to code for it.   We kept telling him flying is different than programming.   

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Have you seen the steering wheel of an F1 car?  They have LED lights that show engine RPM... by knowing what gear and how many RPM to enter the turn at is about the same as using a speedometer.

That may be, but I'd argue WRC rally drivers could tell you exactly how fast they are going into a turn they have never seen before, and a speedo would be useless (or nonexistent) with the tires spinning on gravel.  I'd also argue that WRC drivers are better drivers than F1 drivers but that's a whole 'nother argument :P

Edited by jaylw314

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I think that showing him some of the landing videos that have been linked here by members might change his mind.;):D

 

 

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I think Mr. Yeager is hinting that: in this airplane, that thrust lever in your left hand is what keeps your AOA in good shape!

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I think we can be sure the AoA is important to the plane.   But is know what it is important to the pilot?   Clearly jets need to know it up high as they flirt on the edge of it to gain efficiency.  Do little plane pilots need to know it down low?   If more pilots knew it would that keep them from bending planes?  

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29 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I think we can be sure the AoA is important to the plane.   But is know what it is important to the pilot?   Clearly jets need to know it up high as they flirt on the edge of it to gain efficiency.  Do little plane pilots need to know it down low?   If more pilots knew it would that keep them from bending planes?  

I am still sitting here wondering how anyone can think that a gauge that tells you what percentage of available lift is being used is less valuable than airspeed indication.  If I had to choose 1 or the other, I would certainly choose the AOA gauge.  With airspeed only it is up to the pilot to make estimations of the actual stall speed with at least 3 major factors in mind... Mainly airspeed, configuration and load factor.  With an AOA gauge the determination is precise and independent of configuration or airspeed.  Yes it can be done, and I have no issues with it myself,  but the precise gauge is definitely a comfort.

Think of how many accidents have occurred when someone got to slow in a base to final turn!

 

In civilian jets the AOA sensing/indication  is primarily used during the landing phase for speed management and obviously for stall warning.

Edited by Austintatious
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36 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

I am still sitting here wondering how anyone can think that a gauge that tells you what percentage of available lift is being used is less valuable than airspeed indication.  If I had to choose 1 or the other, I would certainly choose the AOA gauge.  With airspeed only it is up to the pilot to make estimations of the actual stall speed with at least 3 major factors in mind... Mainly airspeed, configuration and load factor.  With an AOA gauge the determination is precise and independent of configuration or airspeed.  Yes it can be done, and I have no issues with it myself,  but the precise gauge is definitely a comfort.

Think of how many accidents have occurred when someone got to slow in a base to final turn!

 

In civilian jets the AOA sensing/indication  is primarily used during the landing phase for speed management and obviously for stall warning.

I made the joke I made earlier with a bleeding tongue. An AOA indicator gives you real time information about what the wing is doing in relationship to important Vspeeds (which as you know are actually derived from AOA). Vso, Vbg, Vx and Vy can all be precisely achieved using AOA with no additional calculations. We agree that it is absolutely ridiculous to take the position that it does not add to safety. In addition to preventing the base to final stall, it’s my opinion that a lot less Mooneys would end up screeching off the ends of runways if they were equipped with AOA indicators.

Edited by Shadrach

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