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No-More-Politics Petition


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10 hours ago, kortopates said:

A positive step forward. What's next? if I had my wish, which of course I don't, and it isn't even realistic at this point, but my wish would be that there wouldn't be any anonymous users. i.e. just like Beechtalk, all of us would be required to register and use our real names. It sure seems that is what keeps them the most civil, or should I say respectful. Just a thought.

I agree,

Signed The Yetti

From my real home in the Himalayan Mountains

If you are in the area please stop by for a light snack on Sherpas and Mountain goats and some tea.

 

Edited by Yetti
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11 hours ago, kortopates said:

A positive step forward. What's next? if I had my wish, which of course I don't, and it isn't even realistic at this point, but my wish would be that there wouldn't be any anonymous users. i.e. just like Beechtalk, all of us would be required to register and use our real names. It sure seems that is what keeps them the most civil, or should I say respectful. Just a thought.

I hear ya.  But truth be told I hear Tommy too.  Everybody has a different personality.  I enjoy, check that, I LOVE a good rough and tumble debate.  BUT, I have found I love being around Mooneyspace more so if you want to play in the sandbox you have to “check” your inner self.  (I do this at work and in certain social circles daily). I enjoy this site very much and do understand that I am abrasive/opinionated/a bully/a dick/and ass (all as described by others).

I am also a fun/outgoing/loving human being that is emotional.  You will see the serious Mooniac here.  If I offend know that it is not personal and I love and respect all (with Mooney Drivers like a cherry on top).

I had a blast as ScottFromIowa/MyNameIsNobody and now Rogue, but I know I was offensive.  I know that I was hurtful.  Apologies to all.  I truly AM sorry.  I always say “I give what I get”, but truth be told I double down and triple down when in debate/douche mode.  That button is off.  As the wise -a- instructs: Move along.  

With regard to saying I will never come back.  Childish words said with emotion/anger/disgust.  I see that I am the one that warrants that anger and disgust after reading Tommy of late.

I get it.

Mea Culpa.

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Your friendly neighborhood Steingar reminds you that you can ignore what you don't like. It's really really easy. I like censorship far far less than the politics with which I disagree.

Edited by steingar
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Signed, Timmy.       :lol:

Seriously, the ignore/block feature is really awesome.   I’ve enjoyed not reading what fools have to say. :)  Maybe if everyone pledged to use that feature, then the forum would self regulate.

Edited by Browncbr1
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2 hours ago, RogueOne said:

I hear ya.  But truth be told I hear Tommy too.  Everybody has a different personality.  I enjoy, check that, I LOVE a good rough and tumble debate.  BUT, I have found I love being around Mooneyspace more so if you want to play in the sandbox you have to “check” your inner self.  (I do this at work and in certain social circles daily). I enjoy this site very much and do understand that I am abrasive/opinionated/a bully/a dick/and ass (all as described by others).

I am also a fun/outgoing/loving human being that is emotional.  You will see the serious Mooniac here.  If I offend know that it is not personal and I love and respect all (with Mooney Drivers like a cherry on top).

I had a blast as ScottFromIowa/MyNameIsNobody and now Rogue, but I know I was offensive.  I know that I was hurtful.  Apologies to all.  I truly AM sorry.  I always say “I give what I get”, but truth be told I double down and triple down when in debate/douche mode.  That button is off.  As the wise -a- instructs: Move along.  

With regard to saying I will never come back.  Childish words said with emotion/anger/disgust.  I see that I am the one that warrants that anger and disgust after reading Tommy of late.

I get it.

Mea Culpa.

Scott, I had no idea that you were RogueOne.  Good to see you back as the kinder, gentler, more introspective version of yourself!

 

Edited by Shadrach
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@RogueOne I think you win the Internet. :)

In all seriousness, I've been known to jump into large online debates and do genuinely enjoy the back and forth of them.  There's a certain draw to intellectually challenging oneself against the knowledge & wisdom of many others; Learning happens when confronted with the truth, and many people (especially aviators) are "compulsive" learners.  That said...

Nobody is immune to losing objectivity in such debates.  Some have a higher tolerance than others (and an unfortunate minority effectively have none), but the end result is that there is always a risk for a debate to devolve into an unproductive spewing of words.

Given that we, as pilots, spend so much of our training and effort trying to mitigate and manage risk, it just makes sense that we would extend that mentality to our aviation-specific "water cooler".  That's not because we want to drive people away ( @Tommy ), but rather because we DON'T want anyone to feel un-included or un-wanted.

Ultimately, politics will still make an appearance here fairly regularly, and that's OK if handled properly...  What's not OK is when the politics become the focus of the discussion and it drives a wedge between otherwise very good (virtual) friends.  That's what I see this petition trying to avoid, and as a semi-formal agreement I think it is a very good solution.

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13 hours ago, kortopates said:

A positive step forward. What's next? if I had my wish, which of course I don't, and it isn't even realistic at this point, but my wish would be that there wouldn't be any anonymous users. i.e. just like Beechtalk, all of us would be required to register and use our real names. It sure seems that is what keeps them the most civil, or should I say respectful. Just a thought.

Paul, some just dont have the self esteem it takes to stand behind what they post and say, and feel this protects their "privacy" I dont get it either.

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OK, fine, I'll put in my $0.02 :rolleyes:

I mentioned before something I heard from a young person on YouTube that struck me.  She said (paraphrasing from memory, of course) "if you don't have friends who have different backgrounds, experiences and opinions from you, that's not actually something to be proud of."

Mooney's bring us together, and I think it's great that it's something that brings a whole bunch of different people who probably would be on the opposite sides of various lines and would never choose to interact with each other otherwise.  That's something that seems harder and harder to get people to do these days.  Most of use (myself included) to various significant degrees live in a bubble in real life where we don't have friends who have different backgrounds, experiences and opinions from ourselves.  That something like these awesome planes can bring those of you (along with your different backgrounds, experiences and opinions) who I wouldn't end up knowing into my life is actually pretty damn cool, and I'd be a bit sad to lose a part of that.

 

Edited by jaylw314
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1 hour ago, RogueOne said:

I hear ya.  But truth be told I hear Tommy too.  Everybody has a different personality.  I enjoy, check that, I LOVE a good rough and tumble debate.  BUT, I have found I love being around Mooneyspace more so if you want to play in the sandbox you have to “check” your inner self.  (I do this at work and in certain social circles daily). I enjoy this site very much and do understand that I am abrasive/opinionated/a bully/a dick/and ass (all as described by others).

Please stay opinionated, dude :D

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12 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I simply can't fathom how someone as educated as Tommy could be so utterly clueless in understanding how to make friends and influence others' opinions.

I can.  I consider myself a very intelligent, well educated individual and I KNOW that I am utterly clueless in understanding how to make friends and influence opinions.  I say stuff ALL THE TIME that rubs people the wrong way and I have NO CLUE that what I said would have that effect.  However, since I'm aware of that shortcoming, I try hard not to say stupid stuff that will offend people to the point that they don't listen to my ideas.  As a result, I typically don't respond to threads like this and just move on to one of the multitude of other great topics on MS.

That said, I Mark Ford (not hiding behind my screen name) agree that we should keep ALL politics and "hot button" topics off MS.  I also think we all need to do ourselves and our moderators a favor by flagging such content, even that which we agree with.

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2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Signed, Timmy.       :lol:

Seriously, the ignore/block feature is really awesome.   I’ve enjoyed not reading what fools have to say. :)  Maybe if everyone pledged to use that feature, then the forum would self regulate.

Wow

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7 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

However, since I'm aware of that shortcoming, I try hard not to say stupid stuff that will offend people to the point that they don't listen to my ideas.  

Mark, I agree 100% and am the same way.  And when I say something dumb I feel bad about it later.

I guess what I really don't understand is someone who knows he offends and doesn't give a damn.

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There are people that are immune to hot button topics... depending on the day, I can be immune to a few people at a time... :)

Easy to move on to the next topic... they get what they came for and everything is good...

Some people are actually offended and terribly not immune to some topics...

Offended once, they move on...

Offended a few times, they move on permanently...

Some offense isn’t even directed at the sensitive people... it just appears in the thread between two people... and the sensitive person doesn’t come back...

 

As a long time MSer... and NJMPer... I run into the same people in two different places....

Sometimes, I don’t see them around here anymore... 

 

Being me, I’m not afraid to ask why and what we can do differently to have them rejoin us...

I don’t know that many people that fall away... but of the few key people I have asked... I have found...

The negativity of these out of control discussions has a strong enough distaste, People do leave...

 

Some take an MS vacation... getting away from this addiction for a day or three, is probably good for your soul... and your wallet... :)

 

At MS... I have found everyone is important... the larger our reach, the better chances we have of being collectively successful...

 

From simple topics to the most gripping ones...

Everyone is welcome and invited to participate...

However, if one person’s participation leads to the loss of other people coming to MS... that isn’t a welcomed participant... is it?

 

We can’t feel bad about ejecting a person for crummy performance... if their crummy performance is responsible for accidentally ejecting other people.

Since we don’t have a budget, a police force, a button that says ‘hey that’s not nice’... there are no written rules, no studying or test taking... we have a tiny budget that barely keeps us afloat...

There is some guidance, some golden rules, some suggestions, some methods people use to curb their writing...

Find what works for you...

 

Write intelligibly, we need more people of every type...

If you write something to be funny... don’t forget to add one of these... :)

Often, funny to one area of the country... may not be so funny half way around the world... even when perfectly written...

We had an MSer around here back in the early days... he had a strong background in industrial safety... there were things he could tell us about the interactions of people and machines, and give insight on planning and practicing how to avoid making mistakes... based on real experience... with a viewpoint that was different from the usual side given by our familiar CFI...

I’m not sure what happened to him... but it would be nice to have his insight around here... something got in the way... probably one of those challenging discussion that caused people to not come back...

Its up to the individual to not be disliked... if you say something out of line... don’t be afraid to say “i’m Sorry”  I meant this...

 

Expect that it takes some practice... not everybody is good at reading and writing... getting a point across, sometimes, in a written forum, is extra challenging...

 

Thanks for not pushing the dislike button...

I’m putting in the extra effort to involve as many people as possible in the awesome world of Mooney flying...

Where else do people say welcome aboard, and really mean it, the first time you arrive? :)

Agree? Disagree? Be nice when you PM me... :)

And don’t be afraid to put your name on the signature line... at the bottom...

Best regards,

-a-

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4 hours ago, carusoam said:

[snipped quote, bolded emphasis mine]|
Some people are actually offended and terribly not immune to some topics...
Offended once, they move on...

Offended a few times, they move on permanently...
Some offense isn’t even directed at the sensitive people... it just appears in the thread between two people... and the sensitive person doesn’t come back...
Sometimes, I don’t see them around here anymore... The negativity of these out of control discussions has a strong enough distaste, People do
leave...
At MS... I have found everyone is important... the larger our reach, the better chances we have of being collectively successful...
We had an MSer around here back in the early days... he had a strong background in industrial safety... there were things he could tell us about the interactions of people and machines, and give insight on planning and practicing how to avoid making mistakes... based on real experience... with a viewpoint that was different from the usual side given by our familiar CFI...
I’m not sure what happened to him... but it would be nice to have his insight around here... something got in the way... probably one of those challenging discussion that caused people to not come back...
And don’t be afraid to put your name on the signature line... at the bottom...

Thanks for your words of wisdom.  To at least you Anthony I'd add some observations in a stream of consciousness manner that I think you can understand, even if it puts others off:

-One of my degrees in in political science.  This doesn't make me a politics expert...in fact the sandbox stuff most people refer to as politics...that people want to ban...to me isn't politics.  It's people bitching, dogs barking.  A principle intellectual problem I have with banning politics is the notion that you can ban politics by prohibiting the sandbox stuff.  A simple definition of politics is the processes by which limited societal resources are allocated to essentially unlimited  public demand for those resources, all based on individual perceptions of the long-term consequences to the community.  This concept routinely permeates all manner of thought and is often present in prose that the average person does not see as "politics."  So if you DO recognize the implied politics (e.g. long-term implications if the philosophy in the post was taken to a logical conclusion) in a post that most don't see as "political" (e.g. maybe during a post on ATC services) you at minimum get triggered (in the modern parlance).  Same with posts with sociological implications.  Same with posts that slight mechanics if you're a mechanic.  Same with myriad postings with personal economic implications.  Etc.  Etc. The only real means of eliminating all the undertones is to maintain sterile dialog...which in fact is what "banners" erroneously think that they provide in the first place.  A historian will note that the censors in history effectively are, again in the modern parlance, creating a "safe-space" to suit their own worldview (if not personal needs), which they see as most important for the health of the community.  Which is an act of politics in and of itself (and/or sociology, depending on how you want to slice it).

-To your points about non-participation.  I had typed out half of a longer technical piece on the ANR hearing subject, then I deleted it.  It's information that I've shared with hundreds of people on the subject and I've learned to hone to salient conceptual points that stick.  I've spent countless of hours of research on the technical aspects of this subject matter both for personal and professional reasons.  But you know what?  Why should I want to take time, for free, to share this with a bunch of real-name folks who enjoy freedom of expression, not  to mention the freedom of more frequent flight...while I'm undoubtedly spending a lot more time at work every week?  I can get paid to share this information.  The popular kids here might say that I've just got low self-esteem and am thus too dysfunctional to share my toys.  Maybe too dysfunctional, but the self-esteem is in check while I can't say the same for others.  Generally people pre-disposed to the sandbox stuff aren't personally insecure but rather are focused on the external community.  So the paradox

-I learned in this thread that I have low self-esteem because I post anonymously.  An alternative could be that I have a name like Hapax Legomenon instead of an effectively anonymous (in the internet era) name like Mike Jones.  Another alternative could be that I hold a station in life where I'm subject to public and professional standards such that my freedom of expression online is limited...in a manner that the Mike Jones' of the world just don't get.  Another alternative is that my name isn't a marketing tool in a career field surrounded by others that too use their name as a marketing tool where it'd be odd NOT to use your name routinely.  Another alternative could be that I enjoy the online persona as separate from real-life...a concept (second persona) recognized as useful and healthy by philosophers since antiquity.  Another alternative could be that my wife doesn't know about my Mooney. Etc.

-So it's true that challenging discussions turns people off.  The "politics" of some turns people off.  The sociology of some turns people off.  The philosophy of some turns people off.  The economics of some turns people off.  Etc.

-The astute observer on MS may observe that there are relatively few chronic posters despite all those names listed as online during peak hours.  The current chronic posters seem well positioned to continue providing information that results in page hits and ultimately support the sponsors/advertisement, keeping the website alive.  But this doesn't mean that the resultant community maintains broad-based experience and knowledge, even while the few chronic posters are really enjoying themselves.  "Don't spoil it for us" they say.

-The observer may note the types of people who don't post here...but are otherwise over-represented around the hangars or even grocery store in real life. 

-I find it quite ironic that "around the hangars"...real life...isn't a safe-space, but some are trying to create one here...and using your real-name is integral to that function.  In my real-life hangar island there are cranks and there are sages.  When you need your crank fill, you know where you need to go, as well as whom to avoid if you don't want to hear it.  Same for the sage input.

-In any population of people 3-6% will be complete nutters from your personal worldview perspective.  It makes logical sense to want to make their ideas disappear.  The problem...as Malcom Gladwell, John Nash Jr, and countless others through history have demonstrated...is that the 3-6% folks just so happen to hold a disproportionate amount of the useful ideas in life.  The other problem is that a minority of people will happily allow a horrible personal outcome to evolve in the long-term if it means that they've achieved the bad outcome on their own agency...not having had to put up (i.e. share the same space) with the nutters.  So who ultimately is the nutter?

If people can't learn to use the ignore button, perhaps Mooneyspace should be renamed "MooneySafeSpace" to warn casual readers of the cool kids echo-chamber nature of the site.

 

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Dozens of people have voted and signed a petition politely asking that Mooneyspace be kept about Mooneys. Not asking to ban freedom of speech. But just asking that political discussions be held elsewhere. Not because people are sensitive or too unintelligent to hold such discussions but because they are uninterested in those discussions and want to see discussion about Mooneys instead. 

So in order to preserve this corner of the internet designed for talking about Mooneys, and out of respect to the people who are here for that purpose, take your irrelevant political arguments somewhere else! There are plenty of other places you are encouraged to talk about that but few places to discuss Mooneys, so be a decent human being and respect that.

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@Tom--that's a very brod and unusual definition you have for "politics."

For the purpose of this thread, and NOT starting a zone dedicated to it, my understanding of the word is tied to the words [spoken and written] and actions of "politicians," people who hold elected political offices in the city, county, state and national government of this great country. Just as they are currently very, very divided and intolerant, so are many of their constituents.

Any area set aside for political posturing here would simply invite that divisive and intolerant behavior into our Mooney Airplane community. I don't really want that here, we have enough division when it comes to things like short body vs. mid-body; turbo vs. NA; ROP vs. LOP; use of Flaps for takeoff; the definition of a proper landing pattern; what counts as a "short" runway; Garmin vs. everything else; ForeFlight vs. anything Android; etc.

Please keep posts dedicated to the words and actions of our posturing, divisive "political class" away from this here Airplane website, and do put them up on your favorite website dedicated to such things instead. Putting them here is as inappropriate as posting your Mooney flights on a website dedicated to helping people with their retirement planning . . . . .

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Putting them here is as inappropriate as posting your Mooney flights on a website dedicated to helping people with their retirement planning . . . . .

I think posting a picture of you airplane on a retirement planning website would probably induce seizures.

That comment made my day. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Please keep posts dedicated to the words and actions of our posturing, divisive "political class" away from this here Airplane website, and do put them up on your favorite website dedicated to such things instead. Putting them here is as inappropriate as posting your Mooney flights on a website dedicated to helping people with their retirement planning . . . . .

^^^^^^^^^^This.

You've earned a mic drop hank...

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