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I’ve been watching the Mooney market for a while now and have recently made an attempt to purchase one that I had to walk away from after a botched PPI. (A prior post of mine where I was pretty salty). As I’m continuing to search for a C or E model that fits my objectives and budget I continue to come across something that I have a concern about. I’ve called some of the really nice looking Mooney owners and brokers about the aircraft they have to sell and specifically asked about recent flight times. I’ve found several that have flown less than 10 hours in the past year or even less than ten hours in each of the past 2, 3, or more years.  I'm aware of the issues of not having flown at all in the last several years, but how much concern should I have when an aircraft is sold "Low Low engine time" of 13 hours and and overhaul is 3 years old?  I'm not talking about aircraft sold at a deal price either, I'm referencing the aircraft being sold top of market pricing for a typical C model between $50,000 and $60,000.  I'm mostly concerned about engine troubles with this questions, not so much the tank sealing or gear pucks.  

 

 

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Edited by Huitt3106
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Are you Looking for some thoughts and ideas related to buying used machinery?

A quirky decision tree is growing below...

 

there are Complexities and choices...

The engine is either good or not good...

The seller has already lowered the price or he hasn’t...

You either want the plane or you don’t...

You either put an offer on the plane or you don’t...

The seller accepts your offer or he doesn’t...

 

Say you take the plane, Still not being sure of its status... you fly it for a year...

It starts making metal, or it doesn’t...

  • No metal?  You win... fly it for another year...
  • Metal? Still a winner... you get an OH, and fly it another year...

 

In the end...

You are flying a plane or you aren’t...

Your pre-owned Mooney costs about a tenth of a new Mooney... and goes to the same exact airports...

 

Assessing financial risk is pretty easy...

Gambling on financial risk isn’t for everyone...

Always be asking yourself what happens if I get this wrong..?  What happens if I get this right?

 

Buying used machinery has a ton of risk...

You either account for the additional risk or you don’t...

You either cut back your risk or you don’t...

 

Are you hoping for somebody to say... jump in everything will be alright?

Somebody will, because they have been there... or they won’t because they have seen the other side...

 

Some planes are good for first time buyers, or they are not...

Learn to recognize what would be good for you, and what is better for somebody else....

Some planes are better for a mechanic to own...

 

Some buyers have figured out a nice C is better than a not so nice E...

Looking at your budget, you realize you want to afford it or you don’t...

When you look at the cost to OH the engine, you either have the money or you don’t...

 

I bought a C that was sitting outdoors.... with a minimal PPI... it needed a new cylinder within 10hours...

I flew it for 10 years... bought for around 30amu, sold for around 20amu... average cost 1amu each year...

Would you say it is worth it? Or would you say it isn't?  :)

 

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy, or plane therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

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Mine was underflown, and it didn't bother me a bit.  It flew ten hours a year for about 6 years.  Did a fairly thorough PPI and really couldn't find any problems anywhere.  Also, it was hangared and clearly well cared for.  When I was looking I was shocked to see a surprising number of airframes that were out of annual, and at least one that was derelict.  Says me an out of annual airplane is scrap aluminum and worth not a penny more.

All that said, there were still plenty of airframes to choose from. Sorry you got burned by one, but keep after it.  Mooney made a LOT of C's, they're out there. When I was shopping I became convinced that at last half of them, as fast as they are, never made it out of Texas.

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4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Are you Looking for some thoughts and ideas related to buying used machinery?

there are Complexities and choices...

The engine is either good or not good...

The seller has already lowered the price or he hasn’t...

You either want the plane or you don’t...

You either put an offer on the plane or you don’t...

The seller accepts your offer or he doesn’t...

 

Say you take the plane, Still not being sure of its status... you fly it for a year...

It starts making metal, or it doesn’t...

  • No metal?  You win... fly it for another year...
  • Metal? Still a winner... you get an OH, and fly it another year...

 

In the end...

You are flying a plane or you aren’t...

Your pre-owned Mooney costs about a tenth of a new Mooney... and goes to the same exact airports...

 

Assessing financial risk is pretty easy...

Gambling on financial risk isn’t for everyone...

Always be asking yourself what happens if I get this wrong..?  What happens if I get this right?

 

Buying used machinery has a ton of risk...

You either account for the additional risk or you don’t...

You either cut back your risk or you don’t...

 

Are you hoping for somebody to say... jump in everything will be alright?

Somebody will, because they have been there... or they won’t because they have seen the other side...

 

Some planes are good for first time buyers, or they are not...

Learn to recognize what would be good for you, and what is better for somebody else....

Some planes are better for a mechanic to own...

 

Some buyers have figured out a nice C is better than a not so nice E...

Looking at your budget, you realize you want to afford it or you don’t...

When you look at the cost to OH the engine, you either have the money or you don’t...

 

I bought a C that was sitting outdoors.... with a minimal PPI... it needed a new cylinder within 10hours...

I flew it for 10 years... bought for around 30amu, sold for around 20amu... average cost 1amu each year...

Would you say it is worth it? Or would you say it isn't?  :)

 

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy, or plane therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

I suppose more of what I'm looking for is to see how people that purchased aircraft in a similar situation fared once they flew it a while.  How often does this seem to, after a year or so, transform into medial engine work (a cylinder replacement - not such a big deal) or more heavy work like an overhaul?  I know this is a broad question with far too many variables.  I know purchasing an aircraft is a risk one way or the other but I'm attempting to gather the most information to limit that risk as much as possible.  I suppose the biggest thing I'm looking for is advice on how to approach it.  Obviously a good PPI is necessary but would borescoping the engine be the best way to hedge my bets against a quick overhaul?  My other question is should an aircraft that is otherwise very nice (hangared, good paint, good avionics, etc) bring premium pricing if its been idle for 2-3 years?  

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These are tough and a crap shoot - no matter what you do, you wont have confidence that the cam/lifters wont turn to dust in the first 200 hours. Toss of a coin if it happens.   If you can pull a jug, you might get a little more insight (e.g see. pitting on the cam), but usually this isn't practical in the prebuy process.   Really you need to pull two jugs to look at everything, and this is an invasive ordeal, but still no guarantee.  I think an <100hr engine in this condition should be priced more like a 1000 hr engine to split the difference in terms of risk of early overhaul.  Good luck convincing sellers that :/

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I can tell you about my purchase.  I bought mine from an old guy on the field who had lost his medical.  It hadn't flown in a little over a year and not much the year before that.  We have now had it almost 2 years.  I'll try to give you as much info as I can that is fact based and you can build your conclusion. 

She is 1975 model with a relatively high time engine, 1600+hrs, but had been torn down for a full prop strike inspecection about 300 hrs ago.  We did a full pre-purchase with a highly regarded MSC before purchase.  The pre-purchase didn't show up any glaring issues.  A few things: old shock discs, a bent tail protection, rusty prop governor oil fitting, flight controls slightly out of rig.  Lynn said nothing that would be of any concern with safety of flight.  I specifically asked becuase I had to fly the plane back to it's home port.  When we talked about it, he said it was a generally well cared for plane.  It looked like a plane that was maintained by someone who was not a MSC anddidn't know all the mooney gotchas, but overall well maintained.

Since purchase, we had the ADI fail and the tanks start leaking.  The tanks may have been our mistake for not checking or maybe they started leaking after a few hard transition training landing with the old shock discs.  The engine has run flawlessly.  I did do short interval oil changes to kinda "wash" the inside of the engine.  We did have one issue for a bit where a cylindar was mis-firing.  We investigated inspecting and cleaning the injector and spark plug.  We didn't find anything, but she ran fine and has run fine since.  We did have a low compression on one cylindar when we bought it.  Not enought to warrant concern, but that has since resolved itself since it is flying agian.

To sum up what has happened in 2 years:

  • Tanks have been resealed
  • Shock discs have been replaced
  • Spark Plugs have been replaced
  • Injectors were cleaned
  • New Tires
  • New Tubes
  • Starter Vibrator has been cleaned/rebuilt
  • Skybeacon ADS-B installed
  • Replaced failed KX170b radio
  • LED landing light
  • Garmin G5 installed to replace failed ADI

Now, non-fact based, opinion. :)  I don't agree with the general sentiment that once a plane sits more than a few hours, it's a total loss.  But as with everything in life, it's a sliding scale.  A plane that has sat a year, is it a total loss?  Maybe.  Did it sit outside that year right beside the ocean getting sprayed with salt water?  I wouldn't touch it.  Did it sit in a relatively dry envionment but still outside?  Probably fine.  Now, the later plane that sat outside in a relatively dry environment, was it well cared for before and during the time it sat?  It's probably fine.  Was it neglected before it sat and not touched at all while it didn't fly?  Probably not one you want to touch.  There are steps to see the condition of the engine and there are steps you can take to "baby" the engine and help bring it back to life smoothly to help prevent any more damage.  Do your due diligence but, at the end of the day, you could buy the best cared for plane on the planet that checks all the boxes and the crankshaft could break on takeoff right after you buy it.  Everything you do in aviation is an exercise in Operational Risk Management.  Do your best to mitigate risk, make a decision, and go.  If you eliminate every risk out there, you'll never have a plane to fly. :) 

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Huitt,

it appears you are focused on a few things at the same time... but are expecting to get something that isn’t there...

lets use an example...

nice plane...

price 100AMU because it is a nice plane...

it sits for a year indoors... probably no issues...

it sits outside for a year... might have an issue...

There is some risk of engine corrosion...

There are not any easy tests that are available to test its status...

Even if the engine is bad... the plane doesn’t get deeply discounted beyond the engine value in question.

 

So you do your best negotiating...

you buy the plane for 95amu...

 

you still fly the plane, doing as much engine monitoring and oil testing as comfortable...

 

you have a few choices...

  • Get lucky, not have an engine challenge...
  • Not get lucky, need an OH...
  • get the OH, and fly on...
  • not get the OH, and sell as is...

The market for unflown planes is smaller...

The market for planes with run-out engines is smaller...

The tough questions are... is this a really nice plane worth 100amu or not?

if only focused on the engine, that is only 20% of the package...

 

If it is a 40amu plane... the engine OH is a much larger percentage of the total cost...  this is where you probably find that a plane that is flying often is going to be a better deal...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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What kills me is that nearly every owner of a plane that has been sitting for years fails to preserve the engine. I know it’s not a magic bullet, but-

They’ll pay hangar rent for years to house it, but they won’t spend a couple of hours and a couple hundred bucks to preserve the most valuable component of their asset.- the engine.

Years later, potential buyers shy away and the plane’s value invariably suffers and then somebody else has to roll the dice when they buy it. It almost seems passive aggressive...

It is neither difficult nor costly to preserve a  Lycoming- just do it!

 

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Huitt,
it appears you are focused on a few things at the same time... but are expecting to get something that isn’t there...
lets use an example...
nice plane...
price 100AMU because it is a nice plane...
it sits for a year indoors... probably no issues...
it sits outside for a year... might have an issue...
There is some risk of engine corrosion...
There are not any easy tests that are available to test its status...
Even if the engine is bad... the plane doesn’t get deeply discounted beyond the engine value in question.
 
So you do your best negotiating...
you buy the plane for 95amu...
 
you still fly the plane, doing as much engine monitoring and oil testing as comfortable...
 
you have a few choices...
  • Get lucky, not have an engine challenge...
  • Not get lucky, need an OH...
  • get the OH, and fly on...
  • not get the OH, and sell as is...
The market for unflown planes is smaller...
The market for planes with run-out engines is smaller...
The tough questions are... is this a really nice plane worth 100amu or not?
if only focused on the engine, that is only 20% of the package...
 
If it is a 40amu plane... the engine OH is a much larger percentage of the total cost...  this is where you probably find that a plane that is flying often is going to be a better deal...
Best regards,
-a-
 

I’m specifically talking about aircraft in the 40,000 to 55,000 price range. The engine, outside of lots of glass on the panel, makes up the largest part of the value. That’s why my question is so focused on that and not other airframe/ avionics specific items (those must be good for me to consider a purchase).


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What kills me is that nearly every owner of a plane that has been sitting for years fails to preserve the engine. I know it’s not a magic bullet, but-
They’ll pay hangar rent for years to house it, but they won’t spend a couple of hours and a couple hundred bucks to preserve the most valuable component of their asset.- the engine.
Years later, potential buyers shy away and the plane’s value invariably suffers and then somebody else has to roll the dice when they buy it. It almost seems passive aggressive...
It is neither difficult nor costly to preserve a  Lycoming- just do it!
 

I’ve found at least a couple aircraft that were hangar kept and completely updated just prior to not being flown anymore that would bring a premium in today’s market. I understand how the owner gets to the point of not having flown the airplane in a couple years. They keep thinking they’re going to get back into flying very soon and no need to go through the process of preserving but time inevitably starts to pass by. It’s unfortunate because to them the aircraft is still worth a premium because they know how much has been invested but to a buyer there’s a huge amount of risk they need to account for in the purchase.


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28 minutes ago, Huitt3106 said:

I’m specifically talking about aircraft in the 40,000 to 55,000 price range. The engine, outside of lots of glass on the panel, makes up the largest part of the value. That’s why my question is so focused on that and not other airframe/ avionics specific items (those must be good for me to consider a purchase).

Buy an airplane with the engine at TBO. Fly the "free" hours and overhaul it when it needs to be done.

I have an S35 Bonanza now that I bought in January. It has over 2,000 hours on a 1,700 TBO but runs well. It uses one quart of oil about every 10 hours and if you only looked at compressions and oil analysis it appears to be a newly broken in engine. I'll fly it until something tells me it is time to overhaul it. Likewise my friend has a P210 that I regularly fly. He also has over 2,000 hours on his 1,600 TBO engine and it too looks close to perfect in all parameters.

Today the value is in buying an airplane with an engine at least 80% to TBO, or even over TBO. You'll get some "free" hours and when you overhaul the engine you get to make the choices. Jewell has a great reputation. You're looking at +/- $17,500 to overhaul an O-360 or IO-360 with R&R.

Edited by KLRDMD
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29 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Buy an airplane with the engine at TBO. Fly the "free" hours and overhaul it when it needs to be done.

I have an S35 Bonanza now that I bought in January. It has over 2,000 hours on a 1,700 TBO but runs well. It uses one quart of oil about every 10 hours and if you only looked at compressions and oil analysis it appears to be a newly broken in engine. I'll fly it until something tells me it is time to overhaul it. Likewise my friend has a P210 that I regularly fly. He also has over 2,000 hours on his 1,600 TBO engine and it too looks close to perfect in all parameters.

Today the value is in buying an airplane with an engine at least 80% to TBO, or even over TBO. You'll get some "free" hours and when you overhaul the engine you get to make the choices. Jewell has a great reputation. You're looking at +/- $17,500 to overhaul an O-360 or IO-360 with R&R.

I'm the very opposite - I like to buy an engine that is newer to fly it to mid time over the next 10 years then sell it as a mid time engine plane. I like to fly my planes, not wait for them to get overhauls or other engine problems. 

 

@Huitt3106 go check out www.N5763Q.com - if you've been burned by PPIs this plane would make make your A&P giddy. 

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4 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

I'm the very opposite - I like to buy an engine that is newer to fly it to mid time over the next 10 years then sell it as a mid time engine plane. I like to fly my planes, not wait for them to get overhauls or other engine problems. 

 

@Huitt3106 go check out www.N5763Q.com - if you've been burned by PPIs this plane would make make your A&P giddy. 

I think I've seen that one for sale. What are you currently asking for it?  Last I checked it was above my budget.  

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1 minute ago, DustinNwind said:

I'm the very opposite - I like to buy an engine that is newer to fly it to mid time over the next 10 years then sell it as a mid time engine plane. I like to fly my planes, not wait for them to get overhauls or other engine problems. 

I don't fly much in July and August since it is over 100º every day and sometimes over 115º. That's when I do my major maintenance. I just took my airplane in for paint Monday.

The problems with newer engines is infant mortality. There is good data showing most engine failures occur in the first 200 hours after overhaul. Someone on BT recently posted:

"In the 6 engine failures I've had in over 30,000 hours of flying, THE HIGHEST TIME ENGINE THAT FAILED HAD 660 HOURS SINCE OVERHAUL. "Infant failures" due to bad parts or impropper assembly are more of a worry than worn-out parts. Most of the non-failure engine "issues" have been after someone has recently been into the engine."

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7 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I don't fly much in July and August since it is over 100º every day and sometimes over 115º. That's when I do my major maintenance. I just took my airplane in for paint Monday.

The problems with newer engines is infant mortality. There is good data showing most engine failures occur in the first 200 hours after overhaul. Someone on BT recently posted:

"In the 6 engine failures I've had in over 30,000 hours of flying, THE HIGHEST TIME ENGINE THAT FAILED HAD 660 HOURS SINCE OVERHAUL. "Infant failures" due to bad parts or impropper assembly are more of a worry than worn-out parts. Most of the non-failure engine "issues" have been after someone has recently been into the engine."

Agreed there is some truth to that but I like when someone else puts the 200 hours onto the engine. Buy the engine at ~200 - 300 hours.

I also understand your thoughts on buying a higher timed engine plane but that means you need to have $30,000 on hand to pay then you're back to your dilemma of "infant failures" in a couple of years (if you fly 100+hours a year) but now you've spent $30k and 2-3 months of no airplane.

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The mathematics say that the rate of infant mortality should be lower for rebuilt engines, since some fraction of the major parts for the motor come from older TBO motors that have stood the test of time.  Realistically, I imagine there is insufficient data to support this conclusion in real life, but it's worth a thought.

24 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

Agreed there is some truth to that but I like when someone else puts the 200 hours onto the engine. Buy the engine at ~200 - 300 hours.

I also understand your thoughts on buying a higher timed engine plane but that means you need to have $30,000 on hand to pay then you're back to your dilemma of "infant failures" in a couple of years (if you fly 100+hours a year) but now you've spent $30k and 2-3 months of no airplane.

The thing about being an aircraft valued higher for having a low-time motor, is that you still need to have the ability to pay for an overhaul or rebuild, so you're in pretty much the same financial dilemma as if you had paid less for a high time motor.  Of course, since you paid for the low-time motor, you now may have less money reserve available.

FWIW, I did buy a plane with a rebuilt motor with 70 hours on it, but it had only flown 12 hours in 4 years.  It was based in west TX, then NM, but not pickled as far as I could tell.  On initial borescoping, they found some light surface corrosion in the cylinders, as expected.  Oil analyses have had a consistent downward trend over the first 2 years.  I'm past 250 hours on the motor now without any obvious problems.

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I tend to agree with @KLRDMD regarding buying engines. I would probably pass on an airplane that has less than 500 hours on the engine. Unless the 200 or 300 hours had all been flown in the last 2 years.  An airplane with 300 hours on a 10 year old overhaul would be a pass for me.

My preference is between 500 and 1000 SMOH, flying 100 hours per year. Second for me is a run out engine, flying minimum 100 hours per year. 

This is the list I follow when searching for an airplane... in order of preference.

  • Between 500 and 1000 SMOH, currently flying 100 hours per year.
  • Run out engine, currently flying 100 hours per year.
  • Run out engine, in annual but not flying much.
  • Between 500 and 1000 SMOH, in annual, 50 hours in the last 12 months.
  • 200 SMOH all hours in last 2 years.

Anything else, I'd pass... Unless it was priced a runout engine... I'd still probably pass.

One other note: while infant mortality is a real thing, I believe the best mitigation is if I can control the process. In other words, I chose the shop, I chose the extent of the overhaul, and I handle the break-in, etc. Thus why I'd buy a runout engine before I'd buy one with 200 SMOH.

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7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I tend to agree with @KLRDMD regarding buying engines. I would probably pass on an airplane that has less than 500 hours on the engine. Unless the 200 or 300 hours had all been flown in the last 2 years.  An airplane with 300 hours on a 10 year old overhaul would be a pass for me.

My preference is between 500 and 1000 SMOH, flying 100 hours per year. Second for me is a run out engine, flying minimum 100 hours per year. 

This is the list I follow when searching for an airplane... in order of preference.

  • Between 500 and 1000 SMOH, currently flying 100 hours per year.
  • Run out engine, currently flying 100 hours per year.
  • Run out engine, in annual but not flying much.
  • Between 500 and 1000 SMOH, in annual, 50 hours in the last 12 months.
  • 200 SMOH all hours in last 2 years.

Anything else, I'd pass... Unless it was priced a runout engine... I'd still probably pass.

One other note: while infant mortality is a real thing, I believe the best mitigation is if I can control the process. In other words, I chose the shop, I chose the extent of the overhaul, and I handle the break-in, etc. Thus why I'd buy a runout engine before I'd buy one with 200 SMOH.

Paul, I agree - but I want to see a plane fly at least 50 hours a year for the last couple of year regardless of the plane I buy - so for that reason a 200-300 hour plane is my ideal. You can borescope an engine but it's hard to see the cam which can have the worst problems. 

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Having not had MooneySpace and making a horrible buying decision I STRONGLY agree with GXR and would PASS on the plane you described.  13 hours on a Major three years ago.  What is this owner doing?  (We know, but that doesn’t make it better).  When the plane is not flying AT LEAST 75-100 hours a year it is TIME TO SELL.  The tool is not being adequately maintained.  

Look to Paul’s advise on your purchase.  Still no guarantee, but if you buy equipped (avionics/airframe) close to where you want it the engine is a KNOWN detail.

If it is any consolation I have ZERO regrets as my enjoyment with ownership over 20+ years.  They are Mooneypits, but you can’t take it with you...

Enjoy do not DREAD the hunt.

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I couldn't get past the "any engine is a crap shoot" regardless of hours; "you need to be able to afford an OH at any time," mantra.

So, I purchased a plane with a high-time engine which had been frequently flown every year for a decade, and priced as a run-out. Two years in and no engine problems.

If I have to OH the engine tomorrow, I've enjoyed two years for 'free':D

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