Bravo vs 252 Confused

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Danb said:

A few yrs ago I did Amarillo Tx to Wilmington De non stop 1300 miles

Last year Longview Tx to Wilmington De non stop 1000 k miles

Not bad the airlines can’t touch it door to door 

Love it! Awesome trips.

[irishpilot]

Seriously? Your Bravo might beat my 252 from A to B if solo. But with a "full" load, two people and luggage, the 252 is likely quicker just because of better range. 
The Bravo is an excellent cross country machine, but no better than the 252 and for the really long cross countries... not as good.
BTW there are 252's and Encore's with FIKI.

@gsxrpilot, I gave my reasons for choosing a Bravo. It was a very tough choice between an Encore and Bravo because both are excellent planes. I needed a non-stop range of 700NM for my mission. The Bravo does it non-stop and it does it quickly. I don't need to go $1000+NM without stopping. If you do, that's great.

When I have passengers, their bladder range usually hover around 2-2.5 hrs. No way my wife is gonna pee in a bottle next to me.

I think you took my response a little personally. For my personal mission, the Bravo was what I wanted. Again, I think 252/Encores are awesome as well.

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

.....

I waited 20 years before upgrading the brakes.  During  that time the kit went from $4,500 to $8,500.  However, I'm not one bit sorry I did the upgrade.  A J braking system on a 3,368 pound airplane was just not adequate.  My thought process originally was that pucks were inexpensive and I could buy a whole lot of them for the cost of the new braking system.  As time went on and A&P prices went up along with gas prices to get over to have them changed, that original thought process proved incorrect.

 

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

The brake upgrade is pretty substantial.  It required all new axles, new thicker disks, and new inner gear doors.  The gear doors aren't just a remove and replace. They need to be fitted, so it takes an experienced shop who knows how to do metal work.  Top Gun told  me they often have shops call them asking why the doors don't fit and are surprised when told they have to fit them.

for anyone contemplating the dual puck brake upgrade today, the price for parts is just under 14K now if you only have pilot brakes, with dual brakes add another $2K. And that doesn't include new hoses which will add another 1/2K as well.  The vast majority of these parts and cost is for Mooney specific parts. I have a couple different Savvy clients going through this now and another friend that shared current Mooney pricing. Its becoming a popular 252 upgrade. Its actually both the inner and middle gear doors that need to be replaced with new to fit over the double puck calipers but the fitting is just trimming the excess sheet metal and then painting.  As Don said above, the biggest benefit of these is much greater longevity in brake system parts. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, irishpilot said:

@gsxrpilot, I gave my reasons for choosing a Bravo. It was a very tough choice between an Encore and Bravo because both are excellent planes. I needed a non-stop range of 700NM for my mission. The Bravo does it non-stop and it does it quickly. I don't need to go $1000+NM without stopping. If you do, that's great.

When I have passengers, their bladder range usually hover around 2-2.5 hrs. No way my wife is gonna pee in a bottle next to me.

I think you took my response a little personally. For my personal mission, the Bravo was what I wanted. Again, I think 252/Encores are awesome as well.

No worries. I was just objecting to the perceived insinuation that the 252 was good for, as you put it "put-put around home station, small jumps for your hamburger" and the Bravo is for serious travel. I was just trying to say the 252 is every bit as capable a traveling machine as the Bravo. And in some situations better. Of course, in other situations the Bravo is better. But both are at the top of the list for traveling cross country machines.

[MIm20c]

Does the 14-16k brake upgrade include the stronger gear for the 252?  Looks like an encore upgrade might be pretty expensive. 

[gsxrpilot]

23 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Does the 14-16k brake upgrade include the stronger gear for the 252?  Looks like an encore upgrade might be pretty expensive. 

There's no change in the gear.

[KLRDMD]

On 7/10/2019 at 11:25 AM, Bravoman said:

 Actually, my goal would be to find something that could comfortably cruise higher, in the high teens and low 20s. The Bravo spoiled me in this regard. I have heard about P Barons, but don’t know much about them. I would imagine they burn considerably more than what you are talking about, and there is the obvious cost and complexity of pressurization.  A hangar neighbor of mine appears to love his, although I have never talked about the nitty-gritty of the performance, fuel consumption, and costs with him. 

I would seriously look at a P337 if you can stay at 20k ft or under. It is a very nice pressurized twin that will be the cheapest to buy, own and fly. I had one and wouldn't hesitate to buy another if it met my vision.

Mine did 182 KTAS at 17,500 ft on 11.5 GPH per engine.

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm not sure what year they started the new interiors, but I think it was around 1996.  

The new interior started with serial #184 about halfway through the 1994 model year. (Also serial #181 had the new interior but not #182 and #183).

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, MIm20c said:

That to me puts the most desirable bravos in the 97-99 range (the Ovations too IMO). The 2000+ birds are priced too high (also IMO). It’s all to easy to forget when buying this type of plane that the operating expense will be $25k per year and an extra 15-20 at the time of purchase (for a better plane) is a drop in the bucket. 

Avoid the 1999's since they have the Moritz gauges which are troublesome. Serial #258 is the first 1999 and the first Moritz equipped Bravo. Moritz Bravos continued up until the G1000, and are serial numbers 0257-0317, 0319-0325, 0327.

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Avoid the 1999's since they have the Moritz gauges which are troublesome. Serial #258 is the first 1999 and the first Moritz equipped Bravo. Moritz Bravos continued up until the G1000, and are serial numbers 0257-0317, 0319-0325, 0327.

Oh yes the wonderful cluster...that and the wonderful “almost ready” ki300 has made for a VERY expensive left panel overhaul. 

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Avoid the 1999's since they have the Moritz gauges which are troublesome. Serial #258 is the first 1999 and the first Moritz equipped Bravo. Moritz Bravos continued up until the G1000, and are serial numbers 0257-0317, 0319-0325, 0327.

I flew #260 for about 5 years until it was sold last year. Never an issue with the Moritz guages, but if one were to develop, I was prepared to replace the 830 JPI with a 930. The new owner is aware of the inability to get them worked on if they fail, and has developed the same strategy if/when it were to happen. Otherwise, the Moritz guages are very nice!

[Seth]

On 7/9/2019 at 8:18 PM, M20F said:

Aerostar 

But for the same annual budget you could be operating a Cheyenne

I would love to get some time in an Aerostar at some point!!

-Seth

 

[slowflyin]

On 7/9/2019 at 12:59 PM, KSMooniac said:

Don has explained some... But there is something unique in the Bravo induction/ignition/combustion arena that has historically been problematic for those trying to run LOP. Some can, some can't. GAMI has tried over the years but as far as I know haven't been able to identify exactly what is happening and provide a reliable fix.

Don has mentioned in the past that his first engine ran LOP with GAMI's but after it was overhauled, it would not! Perhaps he'll expand more on the subject...

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

FWIW    I've had my Bravo for a little over a year.  Mainly from reading this site I didn't even try LOP peak ops until last week.  To my surprise on the last three flights I pulled the mixture back from 18-18.5 to 14.2 GPH (75% power) and she ran smooth and happy.   CHTs dropped by 20 down into the 340-360 range and TIT stayed below my personal redline of 1650. (No more than 1625 being ops normal)   These flights were short 90 minute hops so I was around 12 or 13 thousand.   She lost around 7-8 knots.   I'm excited to try it in the teens where I normally fly.   If I can save 4 GPH and lose only 4% on the dial I'll be pleased.    Just another tool in the box!   

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, slowflyin said:

FWIW    I've had my Bravo for a little over a year.  Mainly from reading this site I didn't even try LOP peak ops until last week.  To my surprise on the last three flights I pulled the mixture back from 18-18.5 to 14.2 GPH (75% power) and she ran smooth and happy.   CHTs dropped by 20 down into the 340-360 range and TIT stayed below my personal redline of 1650. (No more than 1625 being ops normal)   These flights were short 90 minute hops so I was around 12 or 13 thousand.   She lost around 7-8 knots.   I'm excited to try it in the teens where I normally fly.   If I can save 4 GPH and lose only 4% on the dial I'll be pleased.    Just another tool in the box!   

How far LOP did you get?

[thinwing]

On 7/12/2019 at 6:24 AM, mike_elliott said:

I flew #260 for about 5 years until it was sold last year. Never an issue with the Moritz guages, but if one were to develop, I was prepared to replace the 830 JPI with a 930. The new owner is aware of the inability to get them worked on if they fail, and has developed the same strategy if/when it were to happen. Otherwise, the Moritz guages are very nice!

I agree ..so far no issues with the moritz gauges ( knock on wood) and I like the way they look and display...but when time comes I’ll replace them and I woulda rule out a  moritz equipped Bravo or Ovation just on the basis of gauges that would be a pretty minor block to check on a prebuy

[slowflyin]

26 minutes ago, kortopates said:

How far LOP did you get?

Less than 14 GPH I felt some roughness.   That being said, I really don't have great data as my last flights have been over DC and BWI.  Pretty busy airspace and not a lot of time to fiddle.  I essentially exercised the "Big Pull" directly to 14.2.  Overall I was very impressed considering stock injectors.   I will be documenting how far off peak each jug is and the over all spread first chance I get.  

[kortopates]

3 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

Less than 14 GPH I felt some roughness.   That being said, I really don't have great data as my last flights have been over DC and BWI.  Pretty busy airspace and not a lot of time to fiddle.  I essentially exercised the "Big Pull" directly to 14.2.  Overall I was very impressed considering stock injectors.   I will be documenting how far off peak each jug is and the over all spread first chance I get.  

I sure don't mean this to sound scary or critical, but I really encourage my clients to start slowly from no more than 65% power where you can't hurt a thing and become familiar with setting up LOP precisely. As you get to know how your engine operates LOP, you'll get very proficient at setting up and be able to use proxies like TIT and MAP after you know the relationship between TIT and your richest cyl EGT peaking. But at 75% you need to be a full 50F LOP or you have one or more cylinders operating in the redbox. I have been in many clients Bravo's helping them with this stuff and seen a lot of Bravo data and not been able to see a Bravo operate that deeply LOP. 65 to just under 70% is the maximum I have seen when everything is perfect. Nor have I seen a Bravo get anywhere near 0.5 GPH gami spread with stock injectors which equates to resulting in the leanest cylinders flaming out before the richest are adequately LOP in higher power settings. Normal is > 1.0 GPH. All of this is to merely say, just start out at lower unharmful power settings and due your due diligence collecting the data before advancing to higher power temperatures. Additionally, IMO TIT over 1600F is not good for the longevity of your exhaust components and the Bravo is one of the more vulnerable exhaust systems. I personally limit my TIT to 1580F to give me a little buffer before I need to do anything. 

To get you started check out the Savvy Test profile here and start collecting your data. http://content.savvyanalysis.com/static/pdf/SavvyAnalysisFlightTestProfiles.pdf 

[Austintatious]

I am enjoying this thread.  I still have not put a lot of time on my Rocket, but it seems to me the best place to run it is 26” and 2300 rpm at 14.5 gph.  Around fl180 that puts me just about 190 knots.  For another 3 gph you gain 10 more knots, but it doesn’t seem worth it.

i know it sounds strange to have bought a rocket and then to fly it at Econ settings, but the power is wonderful for takeoff and climb.  110-120 Kias at 1000 fpm gets it to altitude quickly but with plenty of ground covered. 

When I compare flight plans on ForeFlight between the rocket and the 252, the rocket is significantly faster even when flown at 55% power (vs 75% on the 252) and with very little extra fuel burned, especially on long hauls.

One thing to keep in mind is that hourly fuel burns are meaningless when talking about a machine used to travel.  It is MPG that matters.  

Edited July 17, 2019 by Austintatious

[carusoam]

6 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

 

i know it sounds strange to have bought a rocket and then to fly it at Econ settings, but the power is wonderful for takeoff and climb.  110-120 Kias at 1000 fpm gets it to altitude quickly but with plenty of ground covered. 

 

Why would it sound strange to be economy conscious?

 

The nice part about Mooneys is Speed and Efficiency...

Economic efficiency is critical for many plane owners...

 

It is great to be able to fly a plane in flaming dragon mode... at the cost of more fuel and a set of cylinders... (Speed is everything)

It is Also great to be able to dial it back and fly with great temp control LOP... (Economic efficiency, and great speed)

Then there are the pilots that use both... Speed or efficiency on different days...

Know your temps, CHTs and TITs...

The Rocket IS a great machine.

Best regards,

-a-

[slowflyin]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

I sure don't mean this to sound scary or critical, but I really encourage my clients to start slowly from no more than 65% power where you can't hurt a thing and become familiar with setting up LOP precisely. As you get to know how your engine operates LOP, you'll get very proficient at setting up and be able to use proxies like TIT and MAP after you know the relationship between TIT and your richest cyl EGT peaking. But at 75% you need to be a full 50F LOP or you have one or more cylinders operating in the redbox. I have been in many clients Bravo's helping them with this stuff and seen a lot of Bravo data and not been able to see a Bravo operate that deeply LOP. 65 to just under 70% is the maximum I have seen when everything is perfect. Nor have I seen a Bravo get anywhere near 0.5 GPH gami spread with stock injectors which equates to resulting in the leanest cylinders flaming out before the richest are adequately LOP in higher power settings. Normal is > 1.0 GPH. All of this is to merely say, just start out at lower unharmful power settings and due your due diligence collecting the data before advancing to higher power temperatures. Additionally, IMO TIT over 1600F is not good for the longevity of your exhaust components and the Bravo is one of the more vulnerable exhaust systems. I personally limit my TIT to 1580F to give me a little buffer before I need to do anything. 

To get you started check out the Savvy Test profile here and start collecting your data. http://content.savvyanalysis.com/static/pdf/SavvyAnalysisFlightTestProfiles.pdf 

Not scary or critical at all.  Appreciate your thoughts.  I'm a Savvy customer and a fan of Mike Busch for years.   700+ hours of LOP ops with excellent results but always looking to learn more.  

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

I sure don't mean this to sound scary or critical, but I really encourage my clients to start slowly from no more than 65% power where you can't hurt a thing and become familiar with setting up LOP precisely. As you get to know how your engine operates LOP, you'll get very proficient at setting up and be able to use proxies like TIT and MAP after you know the relationship between TIT and your richest cyl EGT peaking. But at 75% you need to be a full 50F LOP or you have one or more cylinders operating in the redbox. I have been in many clients Bravo's helping them with this stuff and seen a lot of Bravo data and not been able to see a Bravo operate that deeply LOP. 65 to just under 70% is the maximum I have seen when everything is perfect. Nor have I seen a Bravo get anywhere near 0.5 GPH gami spread with stock injectors which equates to resulting in the leanest cylinders flaming out before the richest are adequately LOP in higher power settings. Normal is > 1.0 GPH. All of this is to merely say, just start out at lower unharmful power settings and due your due diligence collecting the data before advancing to higher power temperatures. Additionally, IMO TIT over 1600F is not good for the longevity of your exhaust components and the Bravo is one of the more vulnerable exhaust systems. I personally limit my TIT to 1580F to give me a little buffer before I need to do anything. 

To get you started check out the Savvy Test profile here and start collecting your data. http://content.savvyanalysis.com/static/pdf/SavvyAnalysisFlightTestProfiles.pdf 

I'm pretty sure this has contributed to 1600 hours of trouble free LOP flying with my 252. Original cylinders, original turbo.

[slowflyin]

50 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm pretty sure this has contributed to 1600 hours of trouble free LOP flying with my 252. Original cylinders, original turbo.

I would agree- LOP= cooler temps and cleaner ops! 

[kortopates]

Not scary or critical at all.  Appreciate your thoughts.  I'm a Savvy customer and a fan of Mike Busch for years.   700+ hours of LOP ops with excellent results but always looking to learn more.  

Great on being a Savvy client, don’t hesitate to hit me up on the Savvy side with analysis help with your LOP ops. With Savvy test profile data we can help you with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Austintatious]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Why would it sound strange to be economy conscious?

 

The nice part about Mooneys is Speed and Efficiency...

Economic efficiency is critical for many plane owners...

 

It is great to be able to fly a plane in flaming dragon mode... at the cost of more fuel and a set of cylinders... (Speed is everything)

It is Also great to be able to dial it back and fly with great temp control LOP... (Economic efficiency, and great speed)

Then there are the pilots that use both... Speed or efficiency on different days...

Know your temps, CHTs and TITs...

The Rocket IS a great machine.

Best regards,

-a-

All the reasons you listed are why I wanted the rocket.  Power when I want it, Efficiency when I want it.

 

A good engine monitor is on my list... In the meantime I will be running ROP and nice and cool on the TIT.